How much does it cost to run a train?

[The exile]

FWIW, there is more and fresher detail in their 2024 annual report. [https://investor.ryanair.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Ryanair-2024-Annual-Report.pdf] - I was using 2023 press releases earlier.

Using 1.20 eur per gbp..

Average fare - FY2024: - €50 [£42],
Ancilliary revenue aka coffee, bags, lottery tickets, spurious charges and penalties 23.40€ [£19.50] per passenger.
So total per passenger - £70.

Cost per passenger avg 62€ [£52].

Average flight, 780 miles, and 9.4 hours of flying per plane per day.

That's pretty shockingly good value - and low cost - compared to rail.

How many of the airports they fly to are charging them fully commercial rates?

 

[A S Leib]

A friend of mine is currently in discussions with Vintage Trains about running a mainline steam train around the East Midlands circuit for him and his wedding guests for his wedding reception. I'll see if I can get some figures from him for what he's been quoted.

Private Trains | Vintage Trains

Travel aboard our Private Trains

vintagetrains.co.uk

(I know I'm replying to this a little late) For sake of comparison, SBB quotes a minimum of CHF 8100 / ~£7500 for 3.5 hours on the Churchill train for a maximum of 96 people (~£22.50 per person per hour at maximum permitted capacity).

 

[coppercapped]

Hope I can step in here, with some questions that have always puzzled me. I hope its not too much nonsense on my part.
I have always wanted to know if the difference in the number of train passengers carried actually makes a real energy cost difference, considering the heavy starting weight of a train, and the lesser weight of passengers, same with miles run and its likely empty seats aren't considered a loss just business. Fill the seats and you then get overcrowding, with hardly any financial gain, And that the fare structure seems to be just overlaid and has no bearing on costs per mile, or minutes run.
Why am I getting a 35% railcard fare discount, I cant go anywhere else and get that sort of discount. eg the bank wont give me £100 of money for £65. or the supermarket, petrol station or gas, water, electricity.

You're receiving a discount to assist with making the fares competitive with other modes such as private cars or road coaches, or on longer distance routes, air.

The 'discount' also encourages you to use rail more frequently, one would hope. It may also help to 'spread the word' about perceived good value of a rail journey.

Railcards offer time limited discounts and are intended to encourage people to travel at 'off-peak' times of the day when there is spare capacity in the trains — they are not valid all day as is suggested by the comparisons given in @negone's post. Hence they are only valid after (generally) 09:30 in the morning and many routes have restrictions on the use of reduced fare tickets in the afternoon/early evening when trains are fuller with people returning home from work.

Electricity prices may also be varied depending on whether it is consumed at 'peak' or 'off-peak' times, although admittedly not a 33% discount and a similar effect can be seen in supermarket loyalty cards.

 

[A S Leib]

they are not valid all day

The under-30 ones and the disabled railcard are, apart from the minimum price for flexible fares for the (16-17?) 16-25 and 26-30 ones.

 

[6Gman]

Why am I getting a 35% railcard fare discount, I cant go anywhere else and get that sort of discount. eg the bank wont give me £100 of money for £65. or the supermarket, petrol station or gas, water, electricity.

There are banks that will give you better terms and conditions if you pay a subscription fee - broadly comparable to the principle of a railcard. Give us some money upfront and we'll offer discounts during the year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

Hope I can step in here, with some questions that have always puzzled me. I hope its not too much nonsense on my part.
I have always wanted to know if the difference in the number of train passengers carried actually makes a real energy cost difference, considering the heavy starting weight of a train, and the lesser weight of passengers,

The difference in weight is about 10%. 35 tons was always the rule of thumb per carriage - 70 passengers (averaging 10 stone each) would be just over 4 tons, so about 10% - but, of course, the loco weighed c.100 tons and only one driver!

So loco + 10 coaches - 450 tons empty, 493 tons fully loaded.

But weight is not the only factor in energy use since rolling resistance, wind resistance etc. wouldn't change.

Someone cleverer than me might be able to calculate a figure but I suspect it would be less than 5%.

 

[JKF]

There are banks that will give you better terms and conditions if you pay a subscription fee - broadly comparable to the principle of a railcard. Give us some money upfront and we'll offer discounts during the year.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Jul 2025 ==

These better terms and conditions (free travel insurance etc.) have only ever been ‘bait’ in an attempt to get people to pay for bank accounts, in the hope that the majority would switch and it’d be like America where everyone pays a monthly charge for domestic banking - the UK is a bit of an outlier in this regard. Once enough people are onboard, free accounts can be ended, and the various perks offered to lure people in will quickly vanish.

I don’t think railcards operate on quite the same principle.

 

[stuu]

Why am I getting a 35% railcard fare discount, I cant go anywhere else and get that sort of discount. eg the bank wont give me £100 of money for £65. or the supermarket, petrol station or gas, water, electricity.

Really? Never seen a 2 for 1 discount at a supermarket, or a happy hour in a pub, or meal deals for two or whatever?

 

[negone]

Really? Never seen a 2 for 1 discount at a supermarket, or a happy hour in a pub, or meal deals for two or whatever?

That's a bogof on selected items not across the board.

 

[Krokodil]

You're receiving a discount to assist with making the fares competitive with other modes such as private cars or road coaches, or on longer distance routes, air.

Not quite (if that was the main aim, they'd just drop prices across the board). The original purpose was to encourage off peak travel, to make better use of underutilised resources. Some like the 26-30 have been added for political reasons, as an electoral bribe after Theresa May bombed with that age group in the election a few months earlier. Others do serve a social purpose, such as the Disabled and Job Centre railcards.

That's a bogof on selected items not across the board.

Railcards in the UK generally have restrictions on when they can be used. Unlike (for example) the Swiss Half Fare Card - like the GA it's more like a subscription service than the UK railcards are.

 

[styles]

The under-30 ones and the disabled railcard are, apart from the minimum price for flexible fares for the (16-17?) 16-25 and 26-30 ones.

Friends and Family not valid on peak services in London and southeast England.

Network Railcard not valid before 10am Monday to Friday on any ticket type.

16-25 has £12 minimum fare before 10am Monday to Friday excluding bank holidays, July, August, or Advance fares.

26-30 has £12 minimum fare before 10am Monday to Friday excluding bank holidays, or Advance fares.

Veterans Railcard has £12 minimum fare before 10am Monday to Friday excluding bank holidays, July, August, or Advance fares.

Two Together Railcard not valid before 9:30am Monday to Friday excluding bank holidays.

Senior Railcard not valid at peak times when travelling wholly in the Network Railcard area, excluding bank holidays.

HM Forces Railcard has £12 minimum fare before 10am Monday to Friday excluding bank holidays, or Advance fares.

Gold Card I think isn't valid before 9:30am M-F also.

Most of the Railcards either don't allow some peak travel, or have minimum fares at peak times.

 

[The Ham]

Some time back (about 12 years ago, IIRC) it was said the cost of leasing a single coach was about £100,000 for an EMU and £110,000 for a DMU.

Also at the same time it was said that lease costs were about 1/3 of the TOC's costs.

If we assume rolling stock is used 80% of the time (10% of a fleet as a reserve in case of failure/having maintenance and a bit for lower usage periods) for a service running 3 hours round trip (so probably an hour travel easy way) doing 4 round trips a day over 360 days a year with a 4 coach train. Then using the old numbers you'd be looking at about £600 per hour of train time.

If we assume 25% occupancy (across the day, so includes counter peak and late evening) then the cost per person (using the £600 figure) would be about £8 (double that and it'll be about £16).

That's about £14.6bn a year (assuming an entirely 4 coach fleet across the network. This compares with TOC costs of £12.5bn so I've got a bit of an error in there somewhere, but as a rough guide, it's probably not too far off.

I've not looked at the numbers but I've stumbled across this data from 2012:

https://www.orr.gov.uk/media/19638/download

 

[Annetts key]

The trouble is there a rather a lot of variables involved.

Note: List is not exhaustive...
First, track access charges vary depending on which line(s) the train will run on.
The type of train affects the cost.
Fuel or energy use varies depending on which type of train is used, as well as the type of power used (third rail, OLE, diesel, etc.).
How many on train staff are required?
Booking arrangements and ticket sales arrangements.
Agreement with the relevant company for station duties.
Stabling arrangements.
Maintenance arrangements, including cleaning, refuelling, refilling with fresh water and discharge services.
Etc...

 

[CMS1]

What is the current 'fuel' cost comparison of a like-for-like modern electric vs modern diesel multiple unit, using today's diesel/electricity rates? Struggling to find in past threads. No other costs e.g. maintenance, just what the cost would be for powering one vs the other for an equivalent journey or a per mile rate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Given the number of electrification fans, hopefully someone knows the saving.

 

[Krokodil]

It's not just fuel (electricity isn't cheap, after all). Less maintenance required, availability goes up, and the service improves such that more tickets will be sold.

 

[357]

The assumed consumption for a 221 is 0.5MPG for the unit. This is conservative to enable easy calculations and ensure trains don't run out of fuel.

 

[Farnborough]

As a corollary, HMRC consider the cost of running a car to be 45p/mile - this obviously excludes any infrastructure!

I'd really be interested in seeing their working, given that this has not changed for many years...

 

[The Ham]

As a corollary, HMRC consider the cost of running a car to be 45p/mile - this obviously excludes any infrastructure!

I'd really be interested in seeing their working, given that this has not changed for many years...

On a very basic calculation:
Average cost of car ownership ÷ 45 = number of miles you can travel

If that's a reasonable number of miles (i.e. isn't like 50,000) then it's still a reasonable number.

The average cost of car ownership in the UK is £3,600, which when you divide by 45p gives you a value of 8,000 miles.

Given that your can't claim more than 10,000 miles at that rate it would appear to be a sensible value.

The reason it's started the same for so long is probably down (at least in part) to the fact that cars are much more efficient than they used to be.

 

[Crithylum]

The assumed consumption for a 221 is 0.5MPG for the unit. This is conservative to enable easy calculations and ensure trains don't run out of fuel.

Given that they only have 200 seats (in a 4 car), that is 100MPG per passenger if every seat is filled. My family’s car has 5 seats and will do at least 40MPG, twice as efficient. I wonder how much cheaper it would be to operate a fleet of 200m long battery bi-mode (or tri-mode with diesel) in the long run.

 

[Krokodil]

100MPG per passenger if every seat is filled. My family’s car has 5 seats and will do at least 40MPG, twice as efficient.

I suspect that the Voyager has a higher seat occupancy rate than your car (the average moving car has 1.3 seats occupied). Particularly given that for a significant chunk of its diagram the Voyager will have an occupancy rate in excess of 100%.

 

[357]

Given that they only have 200 seats (in a 4 car), that is 100MPG per passenger if every seat is filled. My family’s car has 5 seats and will do at least 40MPG, twice as efficient. I wonder how much cheaper it would be to operate a fleet of 200m long battery bi-mode (or tri-mode with diesel) in the long run.

That number is for a 5 car, with 5 engines.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Sep 2025 ==

Given that they only have 200 seats (in a 4 car), that is 100MPG per passenger if every seat is filled. My family’s car has 5 seats and will do at least 40MPG, twice as efficient. I wonder how much cheaper it would be to operate a fleet of 200m long battery bi-mode (or tri-mode with diesel) in the long run.

Also to add - that is the calculation used when doing unit diagrams - reality is probably quite a bit better

 

[David Bullock]

What is the current 'fuel' cost comparison of a like-for-like modern electric vs modern diesel multiple unit, using today's diesel/electricity rates? Struggling to find in past threads. No other costs e.g. maintenance, just what the cost would be for powering one vs the other for an equivalent journey or a per mile rate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Given the number of electrification fans, hopefully someone knows the saving.

I can’t say this is something I fully understand, but I did see a document which modelled the KWh per mile of a cl745 as around 30. EC4T is around 19p per KWh this year. So a London to Norwich journey on a 745 would cost around £650 in electricity