How much do/should railways avoid disruption

[dcsprior]

I'm guessing that by spending enough money, the ability for weather and other factors to disrupt the railways could be reduced. For instance:

• Electrified lines could all have 3rd-rail and overhead electrification, with dual-voltage trains - so there's redundancy in case of lines being down or snow being on the third rail
• More spare trains could be kept available at stations
• Similarly, more spare train-crews could be paid to be on standby and/or critical staff paid to do non-critical duties where they could be pulled from if someone else was sick/etc.

Presumably all of these things would increase the railways resilliance, but could also cost huge amounts of money. And presumably passengers who currently complain about disruption would instead complain about the huge rise in ticket prices.

In things like flood-prevention, designers will often build to protect against anything up to a "100-year event", does railway lines aim for something similar - e.g. to be resilient enough to only suffer major disruption 1 day per year (or 0.5, or 2, or 6, etc...)?

If so, what balance do they aim for? If not, what would be a realistic balance to aim for?

 

[Beveridges]

Electrified lines could all have 3rd-rail and overhead electrification, with dual-voltage trains - so there's redundancy in case of lines being down or snow being on the third rail

Sounds like a very expensive solution, it would be cheaper solution instead for units (or locos) to have a backup diesel engine in case the wires encountered problems. Or increase the thunderbird fleet. The opposite seems to be happening with virgin selling off their thunderbirds at an incredible rate to just about anyone who will have them.

More spare trains could be kept available at stations

Certainly an excellent idea and would solve a lot of problems but the companies just don't want to pay.

Similarly, more spare train-crews could be paid to be on standby and/or critical staff paid to do non-critical duties where they could be pulled from if someone else was sick/etc.

It appears to me that with the exception of Maintenance Depot workers, TOC staff are not flexible at all and won't normally do anything thats not "their job" (an example being the drivers no longer standing in for a guard doing door duties to avoid a train being cancelled)
so for the TOC would simply just have more "Spare" staff which means more staff unproductive.

 

[jopsuk]

when lines come down, there's power lines on the track/wrapped around the train that brought them down...

If you wanted an idioticly expensive way to make the network weatherproof, you'd rebuild the entire damn thing underground....

 

[Manchester77]

The dual traction bit. Way too expensive as OHLE earths very differently to 3rd rail. Someone did a cracking job of describing it on a thread describing how lines into Waterloo will end being converted. For example the amount hat was spent dualing Farringdon to City Thameslink was immense.

You could only really fulfil spare trains at the beginning of an order for example it couldn't be implemented on EC as there aren't enough 225s/HSTs to have spare for the off chance it might be used.

It's a bit of a waste of money to have fully qualified drivers on full pay sat around warming the seats and drinking tea.



A realistic thing is to convert 3rd rail lines to OHLE which is more reliable and energy efficient (thus saving money), perhaps add extra slack in the timetable for trains to recover if they have to stop at a signal for longer than planned etc.

EDIT:- jobsuk covered some of what I said so I've edited it to avoid repeation!

 

[dcsprior]

It appears to me that with the exception of Maintenance Depot workers, TOC staff are not flexible at all and won't normally do anything thats not "their job" (an example being the drivers no longer standing in for a guard doing door duties to avoid a train being cancelled)
so for the TOC would simply just have more "Spare" staff which means more staff unproductive.

In most industries these days, everyone has a sentence like "and anything else reasonably requested" in their job-description (which of course makes the rest of the description rather worthless from the employee's PoV) - presumably this means people can't just refuse to do things which aren't "their job"

Also, on East-Coast I've seen someone with "driver" on his name-badge serving in 1st-Class. I think I saw on two different journeys, but can't be sure. Of course, there could be some reason for this which wouldn't normally apply (e.g. temporary medical condition affecting eyesight, etc which affected ability to drive but not do other duties)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The dual traction bit. Way too expensive as OHLE earths very differently to 3rd rail. Someone did a cracking job of describing it on a thread describing how lines into Waterloo will end being converted. For example the amount hat was spent dualing Farringdon to City Thameslink was immense.

You could only really fulfil spare trains at the beginning of an order for example it couldn't be implemented on EC as there aren't enough 225s/HSTs to have spare for the off chance it might be used.

It's a bit of a waste of money to have fully qualified drivers on full pay sat around warming the seats and drinking tea.

To weather proof how put shelters of the whole darn thing?!


A realistic thing is to convert 3rd rail lines to OHLE which is more reliable and energy efficient (thus saving money), perhaps add extra slack in the timetable for trains to recover if they have to stop at a signal for longer than planned etc.

I'm not sure if my original point came over well. The list of bullets in my original post isn't a list of actual suggestions, but an attempt to illustrate that throwing a huge amount of money around could increase resilience - but this may not be a good idea, so I wondered how the balance was arrived at.

 

[Cherry_Picker]

[*]More spare trains could be kept available at stations
[*]Similarly, more spare train-crews could be paid to be on standby and/or critical staff paid to do non-critical duties where they could be pulled from if someone else was sick/etc.

Then people would just complain about wasted capacity.

 

[455driver]

It appears to me that with the exception of Maintenance Depot workers, TOC staff are not flexible at all and won't normally do anything thats not "their job" (an example being the drivers no longer standing in for a guard doing door duties to avoid a train being cancelled)
so for the TOC would simply just have more "Spare" staff which means more staff unproductive.

Oh for crying out load Mike, drivers cannot do door duties because most of us dont have the tick in the box to say we have been trained to do it, yes 95% of us could do it but the rules dont allow us to, it has got naff all to do with us not being flexible!

The same for going over diversionary routes, if we dont sign them then we are not allowed to drive over them it is that simple.
If you only signed half of your depot would you drive a unit over the half you didnt sign because you wanted to be flexible?
I recently had a breakdown (the train not me) and they wanted it shunted into a siding I didnt sign, "they" wouldnt let me do it and got a bloke who was just finishing (and did sign it) to take the unit in and paid him overtime to do it, it was a dead end siding with a dummy in, 15mph over the points, 5mph along its length (12 coach length) and a dummy out, it could not have been simpler but because I didnt have it on my route card I wasnt allowed to do it, nothing to do with me being inflexible and everything to do with "the rules", even if it does seem stupid.
Funny enough a couple of months ago I had to drive into another siding that I had never ever driven into, it was exactly the same set up as the other one but because it was on my route card that was okay.

TOCs wont have extra staff (or trains) sat spare because they cost money and if they are just sitting there doing nothing then they make no money (but cost a lot), who is going to pay for them?
Do you have 2 cars just in case your daily driver breaks down?
I know I dont, oh the missus car doesnt count either, I mean a car which just sits there taxed, MOTed and insured "just in case" its needed.

 

[O L Leigh]

Those of us who know the industry and the jobs, who actually have operational experience, will not be able to sway those who think they can overturn almost two centuries of experience. There will always be those who know better, even though they know nothing.

Quite honestly I know that engaging in this thread is a fruitless exercise and I will not lower myself to it. Those who "know better" will not listen and do not possess the ability to understand. I refuse to spend my energy trying to educate people who will not listen. Let them have their moment to tell us that we know nothing, are incapable, vain and greedy. This thread is just this forum at it's worst.

O L Leigh

 

[455driver]

You could have typed that before I replied!

Could have saved me the trouble of replying!

 

[luke_oliver]

If you wanted an idioticly expensive way to make the network weatherproof, you'd rebuild the entire damn thing underground....

But then someone would drill a hole in it

 

[dcsprior]

Those of us who know the industry and the jobs, who actually have operational experience, will not be able to sway those who think they can overturn almost two centuries of experience. There will always be those who know better, even though they know nothing.

Quite honestly I know that engaging in this thread is a fruitless exercise and I will not lower myself to it. Those who "know better" will not listen and do not possess the ability to understand. I refuse to spend my energy trying to educate people who will not listen. Let them have their moment to tell us that we know nothing, are incapable, vain and greedy. This thread is just this forum at it's worst.

O L Leigh

I didn't start this thread as a way for non-industry people to tell that know better how to run a railway - but rather to understand where the line is (and should be) drawn on spending money to improve reliability: with most things, you can improve with money - but as neither passengers nor the government want to spend near-limited amounts of cash on the railways, where is the line drawn.

 

[EM2]

...a car which just sits there taxed, MOTed and insured "just in case" its needed.

I do, but then my daily driver is the public transport system

 

[Bald Rick]

Do you have 2 cars just in case your daily driver breaks down?
.

I do but in these austere times, it is about to be subjected to an efficiency programme.

RMT spokesman Dave Raven said "this is yet another example of cuts being forced through to line the pockets of greedy privateers. These cuts will compromise safety as Mrs B Rick has no back up to get the kids to school and will inevitably have to use public transport and everyone knows you are much more likely to get mugged on a bus than your own car. Everybody out!"

 

[Essexman]

More could be done to avoid replacement buses when there is disruption. Wrexham & Shropshire showed with if the will is there other routes can often be found, but all too often TOCs simply take the easy option of putting on buses.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

i do But in these austere times, it is about to be subjected to an efficiency programme.

Rmt spokesman dave raven said "this is yet another example of cuts being forced through to line the pockets of greedy privateers. These cuts will compromise safety as mrs b rick has no back up to get the kids to school and will inevitably have to use public transport and everyone knows you are much more likely to get mugged on a bus than your own car. Everybody out!"

So true

 

[Cherry_Picker]

More could be done to avoid replacement buses when there is disruption. Wrexham & Shropshire showed with if the will is there other routes can often be found, but all too often TOCs simply take the easy option of putting on buses.

Again, that's another thing that is easier said than done if you are a TOC who happens to run more than five trains a day.

Do you have an entire fleet of coaches on standby just in case something goes wrong at short notice like the overheads between Birmingham & Wolverhampton this week or do you hire them in from local companies as required?

One option is actually affordable while the other isn't. The problem there is what happens if the disruption happens in the morning peak? Most of the coaches have been hired out on school work at that hour. They are busy again in the evening peak. They tend to work with a skeleton staff after about 7pm because the coach network doesn't run as many hours of the day as the rail network.

Believe it or not the people who work on the railway try really hard to keep a smooth service possible. It's not always possible, and most of the solutions that people seem to come up with on the spot were probably already thought of by somebody who works in the industry 50 years ago and would have been implemented at the drop of the hat if it were actually practical to do so.

 

[455driver]

I do, but then my daily driver is the public transport system

So you use public transport to get to work for a 4AM start and also to get home after a 2AM finish, that is impressive, if only the rest of us were so blessed, the last bus home from the station is 22-45!

 

[HowardGWR]

Those of us who know the industry and the jobs, who actually have operational experience, will not be able to sway those who think they can overturn almost two centuries of experience. There will always be those who know better, even though they know nothing.

Quite honestly I know that engaging in this thread is a fruitless exercise and I will not lower myself to it. Those who "know better" will not listen and do not possess the ability to understand. I refuse to spend my energy trying to educate people who will not listen. Let them have their moment to tell us that we know nothing, are incapable, vain and greedy. This thread is just this forum at it's worst.

O L Leigh

Refusal to engage is a sign of weakness in a case. I don't know why guards cannot be trained as drivers and vice versa and this reply does nothing to explain why. So who will tell us why?

 

[455driver]

Refusal to engage is a sign of weakness in a case.

Or the fact he is bored to the back teeth of these threads which pop up every couple of months asking the same questions and get the same answers.

I don't know why guards cannot be trained as drivers and vice versa and this reply does nothing to explain why. So who will tell us why?

Money!
Who pays to train the drivers in guards duties (and keep up the competencies if they are not used), also what rate of pay will they receive when carrying out each others duties?

 

[O L Leigh]

Refusal to engage is a sign of weakness in a case.

Go back and search my posting history. I have engaged with this topic again and again over many months and, yes, years. I am sick to the back teeth of it. Unions, staffing, training, rolling stock allocation, the lot.

O L Leigh

 

[313103]

It appears to me that with the exception of Maintenance Depot workers, TOC staff are not flexible at all and won't normally do anything thats not "their job" (an example being the drivers no longer standing in for a guard doing door duties to avoid a train being cancelled)
so for the TOC would simply just have more "Spare" staff which means more staff unproductive.

Whilst I agreed with your previous comment, I have to ask, and I mean really do you know what your saying here?

No Driver in my company is trained in or even given keys to operate in lieu of the Guard not being available to work a train.

Some drivers may have been trained to do it when we had our older stock, but they have all gone and all of our drivers are out of competency and that is those who were trained 65% of our drivers were never trained in the first place.

As for not doing things because its not "their job", would you prefer to have someone not qualified in the duties of a Guard doing a Guards job? Would you prefer it if they used a member of station staff to move a train because no driver was available? No of course you wouldn't. Think of the litigations when it all goes wrong.

 

[EM2]

So you use public transport to get to work for a 4AM start and also to get home after a 2AM finish, that is impressive, if only the rest of us were so blessed, the last bus home from the station is 22-45!

No, because they're not my shift times. I could do, though and a colleague regularly does.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Then people would just complain about wasted capacity.

Already have on this very forum - new street hot spare anyone?

 

[IanXC]

More could be done to avoid replacement buses when there is disruption. Wrexham & Shropshire showed with if the will is there other routes can often be found, but all too often TOCs simply take the easy option of putting on buses.

I think there is definate improvement in this area recently. Passenger Focus surveys come back again and again stating that a longer train journey is preferable to bus/coach substitution.

Just recently, local to me, we've had North TP via Wakefield Kirkgate, South TP running Huddersfield-Sheffield-Doncaster, Hull via Boothferry Park, Doncaster-Hull via Wakefield Kirkgate and Snaith, Grand Central and East Coast via the world, and soon TP via Brigg. Passenegers prefer longer rail journeys to coaches, and the industry is delivering!

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Ahhhh in threads like this you always hear the same old b*&^*&ks from the same people who really have know idea what Traincrew have to know, I find it quite laughable maybe a small minority of people who actually criticise Traincrew (whether it is Drivers or Guards) should actually learn the job before shovelling the same old cr&p.

 

[Flamingo]

Shush, someone will be saying "I pay your wages" next...

 

[dcsprior]

Ahhhh in threads like this you always hear the same old b*&^*&ks from the same people who really have know idea what Traincrew have to know, I find it quite laughable maybe a small minority of people who actually criticise Traincrew (whether it is Drivers or Guards) should actually learn the job before shovelling the same old cr&p.

Once again, what I meant when originally asking this question wasn't:

do the railways do enough to avoid disruption within the cost constraints they face?
​

but rather:

given that reliability improvements cost money, how much is it realistic to expect the railways to spend on them (given that they'll have to pass this on to passengers/customers or taxpayers?​

 

[Flamingo]

Once again, what I meant when originally asking this question wasn't:

do the railways do enough to avoid disruption within the cost constraints they face?
​

but rather:

given that reliability improvements cost money, how much is it realistic to expect the railways to spend on them (given that they'll have to pass this on to passengers/customers or taxpayers?​

It's a very indeterminate question, as you would first need to define what is going "over and above" in terms of design and build (and staffing).