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How much do ROSCO's charge?

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Peter Mugridge

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Well they could be required to maintain them to a certain standard as part of the franchise. The current system doesn't stop operators running stock into the ground. Stored 508s anyone?

Barring write offs ( 66 734 anyone?! ) I think stock has to be returned to the leasing company at the end of a franchise in the same condition it was at the start of the franchise ( less any modifications made during the life of the franchise ), which is why we had the comical situation of some VEP / CIG stock with collision damaged cabs being repaired even while others of the same type were already being withdrawn for scrap...
 
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Rhydgaled

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if the current "big three" are making excessive profits, it's interesting that nobody else has tried to muscle in on the market.
That's a good point, but I can see reasons why the current ROSCOs make excessive profits but new entrants wouldn't. I'll try to explain my thinking:

The problem, I think, is tied to supply and demand. The supply of rolling stock in general (and diesel multiple units in particular) at present only just meets the level of demand (or, depending on how you look at it, is not sufficent to meet the demand). This means, even if one ROSCO reduces their lease costs to undercut the others, the other (more expensive) ROSCOs will still get their trains leased since there is no other source of stock (unless TOCs find it's better for them to buy their own rolling stock for a 10-15 year franchise, which is absurdly unlikely). Therefore, there is no reason to undercut the other ROSCOs, because they know the other ROSCOs cannot supply the whole market.

The amount by which you would have to increase the supply of rolling stock to have really effective competition between ROSCOs is crazy. I expect having a large fleet of unused, un-earning, assets as expensive as trains is a complete non-starter. There's enough doubt raised on this fourm over whether a small number of reserve trains used for running extra services to cater for increased passenger flows for summer holidays, large concerts/festivals and sports fixtures would be viable, whenever I have suggested there should be such stock, let alone having stock that could potentially not be used for years because other ROSCOs have won all the leasing contracts for the time being.

Another possible issue is that new entrants could have difficulty breaking into the market, since TOCs will normally have existing contracts with existing ROSCOs. It could be quite a while after purchasing any assets that a newcomer wins a train supply contract and starts earning income. In other words, starting a ROSCO is a MASSIVE risk, but for the existing ones the income is great since almost nobody can afford to take such a big risk and increase the level of supply to create competition.

Not sure why the stock should be "free" though?
If the state owned the stock, and charged the TOCs a lease fee, the TOCs will simply require higher subsidies/lower premiums for the state (and the TOCs might add a small profit margin while they're at it), exactly the problem with the TOCs having to pay lease fees to the ROSCOs, they pass their increased costs on to the state. With the state charging lease fees, the money would just be going in circles, and presumably there would be a cost (staff?) in managing those transactions. Much simpler in my opinion just to let the TOC have a lease on the stock, at no cost, as part of the contract for the consession/franchise.

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Given the outcome of the competition commission enquiry, the ROCSOs almost certainly aren't doing anything wrong, at least not anything illegal. It is just they exist in a market where there probably cannot be any competion, so they can charge alot for leasing.

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The cost of trains seems to be the big issue, bus companies own their own buses and bid for contracts from local authorities to use them. I have wondered whether a similar model could work for rail, but I expect the costs of trains are too high to permit this.

The point I believe BestWestern is trying to make is also a good one. When trains become life-expired, the government would have to purchase new stock in the suituation I'm advocating, wheras it is presently the ROSCOs who have to pay up for the stock and make their money back in leasing costs (indirectly paid by government). Basicly, the ROSCOs allow government to spread the cost of trains over many years, rather than purchasing stock directly with large lump sums. However, the leasing costs don't stop once the cost of the trains have been paid for, nor even once the ROSCOs have made a specified amount of profit, it just goes on and on, so the governement ends up paying much more than the purchase cost of the trains, but perhaps less in any given year than a year in which a stock order is necessary in the state-owned-stock scenario. The other option is for the government to spread the cost of purchasing the stock with a loan. Like ROSCOs, this spreads the cost over time, unlike ROSCOs the repayments will stop once the loan (plus interest of course) is repaid.

The big questions this leaves are:
  • Would taking out loans to pay for stock work out cheaper than ROSCOs? (I'd say almost certainly) and
  • Could the government afford to actually pay for new rolling stock up front, without needing to spread the cost over time? (probably not, at a guess)
 

TDK

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Why not state-owned (nationalised) rolling stock assets, with TOCs granted a free lease on stock as part of their concession/franchise contract? Either the TOC would be required (by their operating contract) to issue a tender for maintenance of the stock or the state could issue such tenders on behalf of the operators if longer-term maintenance deals are desirable.

I thought the stock was owned by the DB parent company, not by the TOC itself, so they would still need to pay leasing fees to their parent company. Am I right?

Yes, but the parent company DB Arriva or DB Regio whatever they call themselves own the coaches so it is in house, however WSMR purchased a lot of coaches at the outset and DB when they took over WSMR/Chiltern acquired them in what ever way they were permitted. To add, chiltern and the former WSMR did have to lease them from DB but it all goes in the same pot surely!
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Pacer & 153 100K per annum

I am not certain but I was led to believe that some TOC's do not have to pay any leasing fees for the 153's but had to keep them maintained at their own cost, anyone else shed light on this?
 

sprinterguy

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I am not certain but I was led to believe that some TOC's do not have to pay any leasing fees for the 153's but had to keep them maintained at their own cost, anyone else shed light on this?
I have never heard of such a thing regarding class 153s (Which doesn’t necessarily mean that it isn’t happening, of course), but I do know that a handful of class 143s (Pacers) are actually owned outright by First Great Western, or, for that matter, by Welsh County Councils.
 

Tremzinho

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I suspect we don't get a flood of new entrants because the profit margins on leasing new trains is probably not that excessive, just look at the airline industry where even most of the big name airlines find it preferable to lease rather than buy planes.

The real scandal, as others have said, is stock that we taxpayers owned and the Tories flogged off for a pittance.

I really don't want to start another Pacer debate, but I believe the last Tory Government judged them to be almost life expired, and gave them a book value of £1 each in 1994. I've head figures quoting lease costs of up to £100,000, which makes almost a £2million return on each £1 investment! No doubt plenty of other trains were similarly undervalued, but probably not by as much.

Of course the last Labour Government could have got that money back through a windfall tax, but it's now far too late because all of the ROSCOs have been resold several times over and the people who made the windfall have gone.
 

tbtc

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If the state owned the stock, and charged the TOCs a lease fee, the TOCs will simply require higher subsidies/lower premiums for the state (and the TOCs might add a small profit margin while they're at it), exactly the problem with the TOCs having to pay lease fees to the ROSCOs, they pass their increased costs on to the state. With the state charging lease fees, the money would just be going in circles, and presumably there would be a cost (staff?) in managing those transactions. Much simpler in my opinion just to let the TOC have a lease on the stock, at no cost, as part of the contract for the consession/franchise

Okay, I see your point, but:

Firstly, the cost of leasing trains may be far higher than the subsidy/ premium/ profit figures on some TOCs - this may see some unprofitable franchises paying a "premium", but I don't know how that would affect the balance.

Secondly, how would "free" provision of trains deal with TOCs wanting to increase service provision? Could they have as many "free" trains as they wanted if they promised to increase services? If the rolling stock is "free" then a lot of unprofitable lines will become profitable overnight, so there'd be an incentive to increase provision (unless you pay a "fair" rent for stock).

Thirdly, What about if they said that they wanted to lease more "free" trains just to improve maintenance (given the tight ship that some TOCs seem to run when it comes to spare resources for cleaning/ refurbishing/ upgrading/ maintenance)?

Lastly, what incentive would there be to look after the stock (if it was "free")?
 

TDK

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Lastly, what incentive would there be to look after the stock (if it was "free")?

The same as any leasing contract I presume, to ensure the stock is the same you got it or pay a rediculously heavy fine
 
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