How much discretion does a train manager have?

[Hellfire]

I understood, not least from various threads on this forum over the years. that a train manager is given some discretion about being flexible over ticket restrictions. Is that actually the case?

My query stems from an incident in June. I had a First advance Preston to Glasgow for the 0941 departure. However, there was a massive traffic light failure in Preston that morning and it took me over 90 minutes to travel the final two miles to the station.

I know the rules about advance tickets so I went to the ticket office to purchase a new one.However, the chap in the ticket office, having discovered I'd been caught up in the traffic chaos, advised me I could board the next available service which was the 1041. This was confirmed by the two ladies on the barrier.

However, once en route, the train manager insisted I buy a new ticket and said he had no discretion whatsoever to allow me to travel on my existing ticket. Bear in mind I am sitting in an almost empty First Class carriage so not taking anyone's seat.

Having taken this up with Virgin I have had a letter today refunding the replacement ticket and telling me that staff at Preston had requested that discretion should be shown for people caught up in the chaos. Full marks to VT for their usual great customer service.

I'm not having a go at the train manager if what he told me was correct but I'd be interested in any thoughts from TMs on this forum and whether levels of discretion are TOC specific

 

[LowLevel]

We can basically do as we like within the realms of common sense at our TOC - being visible and so on is pushed far harder than revenue from correcting advances.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When ticket office staff show discretion, don't they usually stamp the ticket and add notes to it? I've certainly found that they do in the past.

 

[TEW]

Often where there is something that has the potential to delay a lot of passengers, such as traffic chaos, a message will be sent out by control to advise staff of the problem and ask them to show discretion. In that kind of situation it shouldn't be necessary for the ticket to endorse each ticket individually.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I'm not a TM, but I'd certainly imagine that TMs can and do exercise discretion on a regular basis on their trains.

I wonder if maybe the scenario is that: staff at Preston were clearly aware of the issues passengers like yourself were facing because of the traffic light problem, but VT control weren't aware and therefore hadn't officially authorised ticket restrictions to be eased.

-Or-

VT control had indeed authorised the easement of ticket restrictions because of the problems you faced, but the TM hadn't seen the message about it.

Either way though, I assume you will have explained to the TM about you being allowed through the barrier checks at Preston and I don't see why the TM wasn't able/willing to contact staff at Preston to double check that they indeed allowed you to board the later train with your Advance First ticket.

 

[daikilo]

Having taken this up with Virgin I have had a letter today refunding the replacement ticket and telling me that staff at Preston had requested that discretion should be shown for people caught up in the chaos. Full marks to VT for their usual great customer service.

This actually smacks of poor communication between individuals/departments as the train manager possibly had no knowledge of the off-station delays nor of the booking office request. Note: the word "discretion" is not an instruction, which is what was clearly missing.

 

[voyagerdude220]

This actually smacks of poor communication between individuals/departments as the train manager possibly had no knowledge of the off-station delays nor of the booking office request. Note: the word "discretion" is not an instruction, which is what was clearly missing.

Indeed, I strongly agree with you Daikilo.

I sometimes see on Tyrell Check messages from TOC controls (including VT and XC) along the lines of "TMs please show discretion to passengers with advance tickets boarding at x station, due to [say a traffic light failure]."

Whilst I don't blame the TM for stating the obvious (that the ticket isn't valid on a different train etc.) I do wonder why they couldn't/wouldn't check with either Preston or their control. I know they can be very hard to get hold of from personal experience, however, knowing that a journey from Preston to Glasgow isn't exactly a short one, even if the TM only checked tickets after departing Carlisle, they could have up to an hour or so before they reached Glasgow Central.

 

[Harpers Tate]

I suspect the most likely answer is summed up in one word.
Attitude.
Some have it, some don't.

 

[yorkie]

...the train manager insisted I buy a new ticket and said he had no discretion whatsoever to allow me to travel on my existing ticket....

That was incorrect information. These are the expectations Virgin has of its TMs, unfortunately a small minority act the opposite of this...

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/~/media/be389721d159493e9c54529f3f5a7f04.ashx

We are committed to providing excellent customer service. Our staff are our most important asset and have the opportunity to make a positive difference to your journey.

All our people involved in running Virgin Trains will do their best to ensure that the service meets and, we hope, surpasses expectations

Our people are trained to identify and resolve any journey difficulties you may have....

Also the following is included in their job descriptions:

VIRGIN TRAINS VALUES AND BEHAVIOURS

Virgin Trains behaviours are to be focused on our Customers, to listen actively, to work as a team, to empower others and to show empathy.

Virgin Trains Values are that we will be:
• Professional - we will achieve the highest standards in everything we do.
• Friendly - we are open and honest with our customers and colleagues and treat them with warmth trust and respect.
• Distinctive - we will delight our customers by delivering excellence and innovation - the Virgin Difference.
• Passionate - we are proud of our company and celebrate our achievements as a team

Unfortunately, I am aware of several incidents where the above behaviours have not actually carried out in practice, resulting in several passengers being very badly treated indeed.

Virgin Trains need to do more to ensure all their employees adhere to their expectations.

 

[AlterEgo]

TMs are given a reasonably wide level of discretion on intercity TOCs at least.

They may unilaterally decide to accept a ticket which is not valid, allow travel with no ticket at all, reseat passengers or upgrade them. The TOCs generally let the staff on the ground decide how to handle ad-hoc issues, which is a good idea.

Nonetheless, a TM should not be denying travel after an authorised person said the passenger can travel. If the TM had an issue with the OP's story, he should first have checked Tyrell, and if there was no Control message supporting the OP's story, he should have then called Control himself.

 

[Hellfire]

I'm not a TM, but I'd certainly imagine that TMs can and do exercise discretion on a regular basis on their trains.

I wonder if maybe the scenario is that: staff at Preston were clearly aware of the issues passengers like yourself were facing because of the traffic light problem, but VT control weren't aware and therefore hadn't officially authorised ticket restrictions to be eased.

-Or-

VT control had indeed authorised the easement of ticket restrictions because of the problems you faced, but the TM hadn't seen the message about it.

Either way though, I assume you will have explained to the TM about you being allowed through the barrier checks at Preston and I don't see why the TM wasn't able/willing to contact staff at Preston to double check that they indeed allowed you to board the later train with your Advance First ticket.

I explained the situation to the train manager. Strangely he disappeared at that point and didn't come back for about 30 minutes at which time he insisted he had no discretion at all. I'm not criticising him but I felt his attitude was a little inflexible which, in my experience, is unusual on VT where all the crew members I meet bend over backwards to help

 

[yorkie]

Agreed. There's not many Virgin Trains TMs like that, but there are a few.

What the company needs to understand is just a small number of individuals acting totally against their stated values and behaviours can do a lot of damage to the company's reputation. They need to do more to deal with this type of behaviour.

 

[Hellfire]

Unfortunately, I am aware of several incidents where the above behaviours have not actually carried out in practice, resulting in several passengers being very badly treated indeed.

Virgin Trains need to do more to ensure all their employees adhere to their expectations.

To be fair Yorkie, I travel on VTWC every week and have always found staff do follow these guidelines which is why I as taken aback when I found one that didn't. It's possible that he didn't get a message but, given there is normally a crew change at Preston, I'm surprised he knew nothing about an incident that had gridlocked the city.

 

[DarloRich]

That was incorrect information. These are the expectations Virgin has of its TMs, unfortunately a small minority act the opposite of this...

https://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about/~/media/be389721d159493e9c54529f3f5a7f04.ashx

Also the following is included in their job descriptions:
Unfortunately, I am aware of several incidents where the above behaviours have not actually carried out in practice, resulting in several passengers being very badly treated indeed.

Virgin Trains need to do more to ensure all their employees adhere to their expectations.

The problem is all of that is just subjective PR fluff - it isnt measurable or objective. I can treat you with "warmth, trust and respect" and still ask you to buy a new ticket if your advance isnt valid.

The issue described by the OP seems to be one of communication - if no one tells the guard ( and, say, he is a stickler for the rules) that there are issues with inbound connections or that passage has been arranged on later trains how is he to know? The rules say that you must buy a new ticket if you don't travel on your assigned train on an advance ticket and in the absence of information about issues is it not right they are complied with?

Discretion itself is subjective and is up to the guard to deploy. He might just have been grumpy and decided to be a pita that day!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Agreed. There's not many Virgin Trains TMs like that, but there are a few.

What the company needs to understand is just a small number of individuals acting totally against their stated values and behaviours can do a lot of damage to the company's reputation. They need to do more to deal with this type of behaviour.

It seems they generally have a poor handle on staff discipline - the Coach K seat hogging issue is similar - I have asked if it is policy that staff do that and got a categorical no, but nobody is willing to act on complaints to prevent staff doing it, nor to make it formal and mark the seats as officially reserved.

 

[Hellfire]

The issue described by the OP seems to be one of communication - if no one tells the guard ( and, say, he is a stickler for the rules) that there are issues with inbound connections or that passage has been arranged on later trains how is he to know? The rules say that you must buy a new ticket if you don't travel on your assigned train on an advance ticket and in the absence of information about issues is it not right they are complied with?

Discretion itself is subjective and is up to the guard to deploy. He might just have been grumpy and decided to be a pita that day!

He could have stopped and thought for a moment that I wouldn't have been able to get through the barrier unless a member of VT staffed authorised it. I know exactly what the rules say and, as I said, went to buy another ticket. My complaint to VT was not about the TMs lack of discretion, it was about the mixed messages from their staff. TBH I didn't specifically ask for a refund, it was an off peak ticket and the value was low, I just wanted to let them know about the mixed messages.

 

[DarloRich]

He could have stopped and thought for a moment that I wouldn't have been able to get through the barrier unless a member of VT staffed authorised it. I know exactly what the rules say and, as I said, went to buy another ticket. My complaint to VT was not about the TMs lack of discretion, it was about the mixed messages from their staff. TBH I didn't specifically ask for a refund, it was an off peak ticket and the value was low, I just wanted to let them know about the mixed messages.

The barriers are no obstacle. You could have had a ticket from, say, Lostock Hall, to open the barriers.

I agree entirely that communication ( or lack thereof) was the key here.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The barriers are no obstacle. You could have had a ticket from, say, Lostock Hall, to open the barriers.

I agree entirely that communication ( or lack thereof) was the key here.

Preston does not have automatic barriers (and due to the layout it wouldn't really be feasible to fit them without major work, probably involving an additional or very substantially widened footbridge). It will have been a manned revenue block.

 

[DarloRich]

Preston does not have automatic barriers (and due to the layout it wouldn't really be feasible to fit them without major work, probably involving an additional footbridge). It will have been a manned revenue block.

ok but the point is still valid. The ticket you show guard A may not be the ticket you show guard B.

The overarching point is that a breakdown in communication led to an avoidable situation for all concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

ok but the point is still valid. The ticket you show guard A may not be the ticket you show guard B.

True. Indeed, when I've had a Travelcard season I've often used that to open barriers by default regardless of which (valid) ticket I have been using to actually travel.

As these are revenue blocks on specific trains a single to Lostock Hall would be no good, but one to Lancaster or Wigan depending on direction would work.

 

[Bellbell]

Unfortunately, 'the man on the platform said' and 'well, I obviously have one since I've come through the barriers' (the latter usually when a passenger can't 'find' their ticket admittedly) are fairly commonly heard phrases and are often uttered by the less honest of our passengers. Both situations quite clearly do genuinely happen, and as in this case, it's unfortunate that those dishonest passengers cast doubt over genuine cases like this.

In terms of a change of crew suggesting that the TM would be aware of local events, not necessarily. If the TM isn't local and has just had a PNB there, there's no real reason s/he'd be aware of anything going on locally. Even if the TM was local, if they've walked to work or something, they might also have no idea of anything unusual going on. That doesn't mean they should disbelieve you at all, just trying to point out it's necessarily wilful that they don't know what problems you've experienced.

As others have said, it sounds like a lack of communication here, and possibly the TM could have made different decisions about your ticket after seeking advice from control or the gateline, but that's if the gateline staff got authorisation from control rather than just making the decision themselves, and if the TM can get hold of the gateline. In any case, I'm glad you got the ticket refunded.

 

[joke2711]

A couple of weeks ago I was travelling of a First Advance to London Euston from Liverpool on the 0847. Once on the train, I realised that my seat was rear facing so moved to an "Available" seat in that carriage forward facing. As we left Crewe a "gentleman" insisted I was sat in his reserved seat and asked me to move. I packed everything up (mid breakfast) and moved back to my allocated seat. Shortly after departing Stafford the TM came through doing a ticket check and informed the person that they were on the wrong train. Their ticket was for the service leaving Crewe 5 minutes later. TM explained that he should charge him a full walk up fare and then told him to be more careful .. I was fuming lol

 

[yorkie]

The problem is all of that is just subjective PR fluff - it isnt measurable or objective. I can treat you with "warmth, trust and respect" and still ask you to buy a new ticket if your advance isnt valid.

Yes the first part is PR stuff (but consumer law and contract law do apply to rail tickets!) however the second part of my quote is part of their job spec and is therefore not optional for employees to adhere to.

The issue described by the OP seems to be one of communication - if no one tells the guard ( and, say, he is a stickler for the rules) that there are issues with inbound connections or that passage has been arranged on later trains how is he to know? The rules say that you must buy a new ticket if you don't travel on your assigned train on an advance ticket and in the absence of information about issues is it not right they are complied with?

Already answered:

Nonetheless, a TM should not be denying travel after an authorised person said the passenger can travel. If the TM had an issue with the OP's story, he should first have checked Tyrell, and if there was no Control message supporting the OP's story, he should have then called Control himself.

(But that really is common sense, isn't it?!)

Discretion itself is subjective and is up to the guard to deploy. He might just have been grumpy and decided to be a pita that day!

If they are not fit to do their job as per the company's requirements, the company needs to deal with that in whatever manner is appropriate for the circumstances. It's an internal railway matter.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The Train manager/guard/conductor is ultimately in charge of their train. Folowing rules/regulations or being discretionary ultimately lies with that individual and many factors will be taken into account including service disruption, time of day, loadings, demographic or behaviour and attitude of the individual involved, how late into a shift the TM is or when lunch break is due, relationship status, if someone else on the train has been an arse, weather....

 

[DarloRich]

Yes the first part is PR stuff (but consumer law and contract law do apply to rail tickets!) however the second part of my quote is part of their job spec and is therefore not optional for employees to adhere to

But even the second part isnt very good.I certainly wouldn't write a JD like that. It is still very subjective. I think this conversation illustrates that point. We have a slightly differing view on what those words mean and how they should be applied. A guard could exhibit every one of those behaviours and still upset the passenger by insisting, correctly by the rules, that a new ticket is needed

Already answered:

(But that really is common sense, isn't it?!)

I agree. A quick call to someone in authority would have been the obvious solution.

If they are not fit to do their job as per the company's requirements, the company needs to deal with that in whatever manner is appropriate for the circumstances. It's an internal railway matter.

Indeed - but if the company has not taken action they may not have an issue with performance or behaviour. Perhaps these people are top of the sales league

 

[ComUtoR]

A guard could exhibit every one of those behaviours and still upset the passenger by insisting, correctly by the rules, that a new ticket is needed

No doubt there will be a part of their job description that requires them to issue tickets correctly and that ticketing rules are followed.

 

[rebmcr]

The station staff should have endorsed the ticket, that is the #1 failure here. Euston have always done that when helping me with delays to Advance departures.

 

[SamYeager]

I explained the situation to the train manager. Strangely he disappeared at that point and didn't come back for about 30 minutes at which time he insisted he had no discretion at all.

I wonder if the TM did go and check and not find any communication requesting discretion?

 

[Hellfire]

I wonder if the TM did go and check and not find any communication requesting discretion?

I think he went on to ticket check the rest of the train. He came from behind me so obviously started at the rear of the train which is where I was sitting.

 

[Hellfire]

Preston does not have automatic barriers (and due to the layout it wouldn't really be feasible to fit them without major work, probably involving an additional or very substantially widened footbridge). It will have been a manned revenue block.

Indeed, although in this case a womaned revenue block