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Interesting point on codesharing. Not sure it is required though or how it'd work given you don't check in and have boarding passes scanned for intercity rail in the way you do for flights.
Deutsche Bahn is a completely ungated system and they do it.
The obvious answer is some sort of software integration by way of which an e-ticket is issued for the train journey either at the time of booking or at the time of online check-in (or for download at any other relevant time). It would be difficult to offer it for those not booking/checking in online, but these days that's almost nobody, and if such people really wanted it it could be done by booking via a travel agent, which such people would generally be doing anyway because airlines don't any longer have walk-in ticket offices in cities and pretty much nobody goes to an airport to do it.
I’d also note that code-sharing isn’t strictly required - given the vast majority of people in Manchester (I suspect) know how to book a train ticket anyway, a published (and well-advertised) guarantee of through connections with any rail ticket to Heathrow/OOC might be enough to do the trick.
Ideally we’d have both, as code-sharing is certainly easier for inexperienced travelers, but will never be available for every rail station in the country.
I’d also note that code-sharing isn’t strictly required - given the vast majority of people in Manchester (I suspect) know how to book a train ticket anyway, a published (and well-advertised) guarantee of through connections with any rail ticket to Heathrow/OOC might be enough to do the trick.
I suppose to be fair TPE's Airport Advances do that in one direction, but you need it in both directions. Travel insurance can help of course but it's added faff and something most people are unwilling to deal with - for people like my parents it needs to be included in the package holiday at least.
Ideally we’d have both, as code-sharing is certainly easier for inexperienced travelers, but will never be available for every rail station in the country.
I'm only suggesting it be included for direct HS2 journeys to Old Oak Common, so as to directly replace flights from Manchester to London (and add a few options for people who would drive to Manchester Airport from around the North e.g. Liverpool, and to add a Birmingham option). Bringing in whether the local stopping service from Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold to connect with HS2 might be cancelled that morning would be too complex for airlines to find acceptable.
Deutsche Bahn is a completely ungated system and they do it.
The obvious answer is some sort of software integration by way of which an e-ticket is issued for the train journey either at the time of booking or at the time of online check-in (or for download at any other relevant time). It would be difficult to offer it for those not booking/checking in online, but these days that's almost nobody, and if such people really wanted it it could be done by booking via a travel agent, which such people would generally be doing anyway because airlines don't any longer have walk-in ticket offices in cities and pretty much nobody goes to an airport to do it.
But that would need the Railway to accept a BA issued boarding pass. I don't see that happening. It also depends on them having the willingness to do so, most domestic traffic will be coming from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Belfast
Not insurmountable (nor is an interface to create a railway e-ticket). Both are extremely easy things to do.
(Be aware my job is IT - I know the art of the possible here - this isn't like one of the cases where I might suggest a new or modified rail service and @The Planner typically steps in and tells me why it's inviable )
If you ban domestic air travel where the rail journey time is under 2.5 hours as the French did, BA's choice is to give up on that traffic or to make a deal with the railway. I doubt they're going to choose the one that reduces their profits.
And the railway is effectively nationalised so can simply be told to do that by DfT.
Would the rail tickets be for a specific train, or be 'open'? If it is to continue a journey after a flight, then allowances must be made if the flight or custom clearance is delayed.
Wouldn't such an arragement necessarily open the railway to an enormous liability in terms of getting delayed passengers to destinations that might be on the other side of the earth?
Would the rail tickets be for a specific train, or be 'open'? If it is to continue a journey after a flight, then allowances must be made if the flight or custom clearance is delayed.
They would be for a specific train (as it is likely all or the vast majority of HS2 tickets will be - it's inconceivable that the LNER trial is solely about fare increases, but it's no doubt also a dry run for HS2 fares policy - there may be a pricey Anytime but there almost certainly won't be a walk up off-peak). Obviously, being sold as a through fare, if the connection is missed one has the legal and contractual right to be re-routed as appropriate i.e. onto a later train or the next day with hotel and meals provided.
Think of it as a virtual flight, so the rights are exactly the same as if it was an actual connecting flight. An analogy is a rail replacement bus which is legally a train.
Wouldn't such an arragement necessarily open the railway to an enormous liability in terms of getting delayed passengers to destinations that might be on the other side of the earth?
I don't know how this is handled for Deutsche Bahn and Lufthansa, but clearly some arrangement is in place, probably involving reinsurance of large liabilities.
(I should note that because this has been done before it IS possible, so "that won't work because" type responses aren't really very useful on this thread, much as I know people do like doing that! The thread is simply about how it would be implemented, that it is possible is a given )
Wouldn't such an arragement necessarily open the railway to an enormous liability in terms of getting delayed passengers to destinations that might be on the other side of the earth?
The airline could just deal with it the same as if one of their own connecting flights was late, or indeed a connecting flight via a codeshare.
That how I would assume it would be done.
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And, not quite the same, but...
A few years ago I was in Germany during a fairly serious amount of snow. Flights were somewhat disrupted.
At Munich airport they were telling domestic Lufthansa passengers just to go and get the train and claim the fare back later.
I doubt the airlines and railway will work together to offer a formal "codeshare". More likely the airlines could offer rail+fly tickets, with the airline taking the commercial risk in case of delays.
The biggest obstacle IMO is the need to connect at OOC. In most cities where this is already offered (Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc.), the station is directly at the airport. Having to guide (often foreign) passengers through a connection at OCC, however straight-forward that may be, introduces lots of extra problems.....
For example, what if passenger X gets the correct train, which is slightly delayed, then also spends 30 mins at OOC buying coffees instead of heading straight to Heathrow? Trying to prove who is at fault becomes a mess that the airlines would sooner not deal with.....
For example, what if passenger X gets the correct train, which is slightly delayed, then also spends 30 mins at OOC buying coffees instead of heading straight to Heathrow? Trying to prove who is at fault becomes a mess that the airlines would sooner not deal with.....
Can we please, please not take this down the rabbit hole of whether it's practical. It is practical because it exists in other places, thus discussion surrounding whether it may be or not is not really of any purpose. This discussion is intended to be about how, given that it can be done, precisely it might actually be done.
But with regard to this specific point, for a very long time (possibly still the case) BA sold connectional flights involving one being to/from Heathrow and one to/from Gatwick, which pales a short London Overground or shuttle bus ride into insignificance.
The biggest obstacle IMO is the need to connect at OOC. In most cities where this is already offered (Frankfurt, Amsterdam etc.), the station is directly at the airport. Having to guide (often foreign) passengers through a connection at OCC, however straight-forward that may be, introduces lots of extra problems.....
For example, what if passenger X gets the correct train, which is slightly delayed, then also spends 30 mins at OOC buying coffees instead of heading straight to Heathrow? Trying to prove who is at fault becomes a mess that the airlines would sooner not deal with.....
Airlines will have access to records of where each codeshare passenger last scanned their boarding pass, so for example they can tell who is on a connecting flight and whether delayed passengers are on their way through security. Railway e-tickets create similar records when scanned at a barrier, so in principle these could be fed through to the airline although I suspect something like that is rather less straightforward in practice! Using this information, the airline could deny boarding to a passenger who disappeared for an hour at OOC in much the same way as I presume they do to someone who disappears into the bar at Heathrow.
Can we please, please not take this down the rabbit hole of whether it's practical. It is practical because it exists in other places, thus discussion surrounding whether it may be or not is not really of any purpose. This discussion is intended to be about how, given that it can be done, precisely it might actually be done.
But with regard to this specific point, for a very long time (possibly still the case) BA sold connectional flights involving one being to/from Heathrow and one to/from Gatwick, which pales a short London Overground or shuttle bus ride into insignificance.
Correct, National Express was the usual method but it was up to the passenger. I don't know if they do it any more (I half recall they maybe don't?) but it was a thing for a very long time.
I have to agree with Bletchleyite that it is clearly possible, as it is done with Eurostar (formerly Thalys, Brussels to Schiphol), TGVs to Charles-de-gaulle, and DB/Lufthansa codeshare. I personally don't see why you would limit it to HS2, when the same connection from OOC can be offered from GWR
Whether the airlines have interest will likely depend on various factors, including whether the airlines believe they could make more profits by using the heathrow slots for longer-distance destinations rather than hops within the uk, laws on domestic flights, etc.
Bringing in whether the local stopping service from Little-Piddle-on-the-Wold to connect with HS2 might be cancelled that morning would be too complex for airlines to find acceptable.
I'm with you that the airlines are unlikely to accept this - and the "low hanging fruit" HS2 stations are certainly a good start.
But I really don't see how it'd be that complex in theory - you just train the check-in desk to rebook passengers for free on presentation of a rail ticket and evidence the train was disrupted (which could be as simple as the passenger showing the agent train status on their phone, or indeed the agent quickly checking NRE themselves). There's obviously some added complexity on last flights of the day or when everything's fully booked, but airlines already have the infrastructure to handle all of this, including things like rebooking via circuitous routes.
Seems like a very good candidate for consumer-rights legislation - I bet the EU could be convinced to do it, though I've less hope in Westminster.
I have to agree with Bletchleyite that it is clearly possible, as it is done with Eurostar (formerly Thalys, Brussels to Schiphol), TGVs to Charles-de-gaulle, and DB/Lufthansa codeshare. I personally don't see why you would limit it to HS2, when the same connection from OOC can be offered from GWR
I didn't think of GWR to be honest, but I think pragmatically it would only work for major destinations served direct from Old Oak (so maybe just Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance, say). You're not going to get airlines being willing to put St. Keyne Wishing Well Halt in their booking system (and these would be booked via airlines as a sort of codeshare - they are in the European examples).
Whether the airlines have interest will likely depend on various factors, including whether the airlines believe they could make more profits by using the heathrow slots for longer-distance destinations rather than hops within the uk, laws on domestic flights, etc.
It'd certainly take French style legislation to ban domestic flights up to a certain length to force their hand, though they may of course choose not to offer domestic connections at all - it's not mandatory for airlines to do connections, and indeed budget ones generally don't.
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More chance of Westminster doing it - UK passenger rights on rail are significantly better than EU ones, because SNCF, DB, NS, RENFE etc are far too strong a lobby to their respective Governments.
It's slightly ironic indeed that you can book a flight with a through connection on "Eurostar Red" and the connection be protected, but you can't book a DB train with that - it's ticketed on two tickets, which means two contracts, which unlike UK domestic rail means no protection!
I'm with you that the airlines are unlikely to accept this - and the "low hanging fruit" HS2 stations are certainly a good start.
But I really don't see how it'd be that complex in theory - you just train the check-in desk to rebook passengers for free on presentation of a rail ticket and evidence the train was disrupted (which could be as simple as the passenger showing the agent train status on their phone, or indeed the agent quickly checking NRE themselves). There's obviously some added complexity on last flights of the day or when everything's fully booked, but airlines already have the infrastructure to handle all of this, including things like rebooking via circuitous routes.
Seems like a very good candidate for consumer-rights legislation - I bet the EU could be convinced to do it, though I've less hope in Westminster.
Having a more sophisticated system where the airline is able to see the progress of train passengers approaching the airport would allow them to delay the flight, as airlines sometimes do if many connecting passengers are missing but expected to reach the gate within a reasonable time.
Having a more sophisticated system where the airline is able to see the progress of train passengers approaching the airport would allow them to delay the flight, as airlines sometimes do if many connecting passengers are missing but expected to reach the gate within a reasonable time.
In an ideal world we'd have a hybrid system, with both codesharing (for easier booking and ability to hold connections) and guaranteed connections on separate tickets (for travel from e.g. St. Keyne Wishing Well Halt).
Other Star Alliance members have moved towards this in Europe after seeing Lufthansa's success with it. For example if you try the Air Canada website for something like Toronto to Nurnberg you are likely to be given a DB service from Frankfurt Flugh to Nurnberg Hbf. This screenshot shows an itinerary departing Sunday at 1620 before an arrival the following morning at 0956.
DB also allow Lufthansa Rail & Fly on Air Canada now too. This is slightly different in that you just check out your flight with the rail and fly as an add on, and then use DB's portal to arrange your ticket from any station to your relevant airport.
Air Canada have also rolled out through ticketing with SBB, OBB and SNCF. United Airlines were looking at something similar.
I didn't think of GWR to be honest, but I think pragmatically it would only work for major destinations served direct from Old Oak (so maybe just Bristol, Cardiff, Exeter, Plymouth and Penzance, say). You're not going to get airlines being willing to put St. Keyne Wishing Well Halt in their booking system (and these would be booked via airlines as a sort of codeshare - they are in the European examples).
I think it used to be the case that some UK stations had airport style three letter codes and you could get train tickets through the airline booking systems.
What happened if you had an itinerary involving this and a flight and missed a connection I don't know...
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