How many more intermodal terminals do we need?

[HSTEd]

There’s no subsidy, but you don’t need it. Battery hybrid shunters are cheaper to operate than diesel only shunters. There are some in service now in this country (with Tata steel), and more on order for other operators, including a few for Mossend.

I suppose this process has just been held up with the enormous glut of diesel shunters we still seem to have, what with the huge orders placed by BR, the NCB and other industrial customers who now no longer need them.

 

[Bald Rick]

I suppose this process has just been held up with the enormous glut of diesel shunters we still seem to have, what with the huge orders placed by BR, the NCB and other industrial customers who now no longer need them.

Clayton are doing a reasonable trade in hybrid shunters now.

 

[muddythefish]

The simple reason is that not many peopel actually live there.
The population of all of Devonwall is well under 2 million

Scotland has about 5m people but has numerous intermodal services from the south and within the country too. There must be a business case for some services to the south west?

 

[Bald Rick]

There must be a business case for some services to the south west?

If there was, there would be some.

 

[ac6000cw]

If there was, there would be some.

Quite...

Didn't (a long time ago) BR Freightliner have a terminal at Plymouth for a while?

Scotland has a rather different population distribution to Devon and Cornwall, with the 'Central Belt' housing the majority of the Scottish population and industry (and the two largest cities are only 46 miles apart), so it's much more fertile ground for running block intermodal trains to.

Plus Felixstowe or Southhampton to the Central Belt is a nice long 400+ mile haul, ideally suited to rail.

 

[Bald Rick]

Plus Felixstowe or Southhampton to the Central Belt is a nice long 400+ mile haul, ideally suited to rail.

And very competitive with road.

Southampton or Bristol to Devon, by contrast, is neither.

 

[edwin_m]

Quite...

Didn't (a long time ago) BR Freightliner have a terminal at Plymouth for a while?

Scotland has a rather different population distribution to Devon and Cornwall, with the 'Central Belt' housing the majority of the Scottish population and industry (and the two largest cities are only 46 miles apart), so it's much more fertile ground for running block intermodal trains to.

Plus Felixstowe or Southhampton to the Central Belt is a nice long 400+ mile haul, ideally suited to rail.

I wonder though if the SW is actually more similar to Scotland than it seems, with Bristol (plus nearby parts of South Wales) equivalent to Glasgow and Edinburgh, and Exeter and Plymouth equivalent to Dundee and Aberdeen. However Bristol already has some intermodal services, and perhaps if Exeter and Plymouth were in Scotland they would have them too.

 

[Irascible]

The simple reason is that not many peopel actually live there.
The population of all of Devonwall is well under 2 million

If you include geographical Devon ( ie with Plymouth & Torbay ) as opposed to the county, it's just under 2m. 260k of those are in Plymouth which does seem like it *should* have some opportunities. Exeter and Torbay are both ~130k ( add Newton Abbott on too as it's inbetween ) & probably close enough together that you could sustain one terminal, but other than bulk parcels I'm not really sure what would come in...

Devon & Cornwall are almost as near to Southampton as Bristol - if slightly more awkwardly connected - so I dunno about the comparison with Scotland. Part of the problem may be the wilderness of Somerset & Dorset...

 

[mwmbwls]

The clue is in the name Intermodal. End users want containers door to door. All the containers brought in and out of Rossington/ Trafford Park are transferred onward by truck. Rossington at Doncaster is next to the M18. The latter is a four half drive of 91% of the UK population. The significance of four hours as a heuristic is related to drivers' working hours and tachographs. By the way - are there still no motorways in Cornwall?

 

[zwk500]

The clue is in the name Intermodal. End users want containers door to door. All the containers brought in and out of Rossington/ Trafford Park are transferred onward by truck. Rossington at Doncaster is next to the M18. The latter is a four half drive of 91% of the UK population. The significance of four hours as a heuristic is related to drivers' working hours and tachographs.

Agreed

By the way - are there still no motorways in Cornwall?

The M5 gets just west of Exeter then nothing. What would a lorry's driving time from Bristol to Truro be?

 

[HSTEd]

The M5 gets just west of Exeter then nothing. What would a lorry's driving time from Bristol to Truro be?

Well to be fair, the A30 is dramatically better than it used to be.

I believe it is almost all dual carriageway a long way west now.

EDIT:

It is dual carriageway to within a few miles of Truro, and a new section is being built that means it will be dual carriageway all the way to Camborne

 

[Bald Rick]

The M5 gets just west of Exeter then nothing. What would a lorry's driving time from Bristol to Truro be?

About 3 1/2 hours.

But here’s the thing - it would be lorries, not containers, making the trip. Logistics to Cornwall and Devon are generally serviced from distribution centres in Bristol or Exeter. That’s where the containers will go.

 

[muddythefish]

If you include geographical Devon ( ie with Plymouth & Torbay ) as opposed to the county, it's just under 2m. 260k of those are in Plymouth which does seem like it *should* have some opportunities. Exeter and Torbay are both ~130k ( add Newton Abbott on too as it's inbetween ) & probably close enough together that you could sustain one terminal, but other than bulk parcels I'm not really sure what would come in...

Supermarket supplies would be a start. Tesco maybe?

 

[Bald Rick]

Supermarket supplies would be a start. Tesco maybe?

You need W8 gauge for the swap bodies (and megafret wagons), I’m not sure what the gauge is down that way. Anyway, some of it already is travelling by rail in the new Daventry - Wentloog Tesco service. Tesco’s main Distribution Centre for the South West is in Bristol, and receives traffic off that train.

 

[edwin_m]

Aberdeen and Plymouth are similar populations and distances from rail hubs in the Central Belt and Bristol/Cardiff, and both are gauge-restricted so require special wagons (I believe enhancement to Aberdeen is in hand and may by now be done). So it's interesting to wonder why one has some distribution by rail and the other doesn't. I don't know the answer, but reasons might be firstly if everything is unstuffed and re-packed in the case of Plymouth and they are simply transferred to the onward train in Scotland, and secondly that the Scottish government is more strongly supportive of such things.

 

[ac6000cw]

Another issue with running freight west to Plymouth are the steep, twisty gradients between Newton Abbott & Plymouth - I think Dainton Bank is the 3rd steepest mainline gradient in the UK (averaging about 2.5%), which might increase the costs of the rail haul due to train weight limitations. Last time I traveled over the line, both a westbound HST and a 150 I was on were slipping on the climbs at times on wet rails - anyone know what the trailing load limit is for a cl.66 over the Devon Banks?

 

[MarkyT]

- anyone know what the trailing load limit is for a cl.66 over the Devon Banks?

Don't know but recent heavy sand trains out of Cornwall have been split and worked in two portions between Tavistock Jn and Riverside yards.

 

[Irascible]

Restricted W8 to Tavistock Jct - there's notes about the restictions in the Sectional Appendix, but I couldn't tell you if the restrictions would enable supermarket traffic ( "2595(h) x 2550(w) on FKA IKA IDA wagons " to quote ).