How many guards?

[Starmill]

So, as a relative newbie and Northerner (in both senses of the word) who is still failing to understand DOO and what the heck a Penalty Fare is actually for, my latest bout of confusion is about guards.

I've been on double TPE 170s and guard was stuck in the rear unit... no ticket checks AT ALL in the front one! Given the cost of a journey which could be undertaken without checks on a this train, this is surely losing them serious revenue? (Then again, I hear that peak transpennine services are hopelessly overcrowded, so no on board check would take place anyway?) It's happened more than once now, and on Northern units too, there has only been one guard for unconnected double units. Couldn't they move around at stations and open/close the doors from the front unit?

The thing is, I've been on a fair number of trains with TWO guards, when there was only one unit? My Cumbrian Coast 156 was like this, as well as a Buxton train and a number of Manchester Airport - Piccadilly one's I've been on. The latter example does actually make sense, because the guard can stay in the cab opening the doors every two mins and the other one can sell tickets. Was it possible that the extra member of staff is trained only in "ticket selling" as it were?

I was just wondering, is there any official guidance or anything? Or am I just reading too much into it? The TPE journeys seem awfully long without the means to contact staff, as I witnessed when a train had to drop a station en-route - everybody panics and knocks on the (empty) rear cab door!

Thanks!

 

[185]

Quite often, one is a guard, one is an RPA on double units. Otherwise, one could a guard going pass (passenger) as part of his shift. A third likelyhood is either a guard being minded or out road learning.

At TPE, unlike Northern, there is an easement which allows guards to safely do tickets in both portions of the train when possible. This is supposedly due to the amount of additional communication equipment in both portions of the modern trains.

Not as efficient as a certain tram company, eh?

 

[ainsworth74]

who is still failing to understand DOO

How so? It's not a complex idea. There is, on most systems, one person on the train. The driver! Hence Driver Only Operation.

Couldn't they move around at stations and open/close the doors from the front unit?

They do normally. It could be that the guard was busy in the rear unit dealing with passengers who had invalid tickets.

 

[BestWestern]

This demonstrates the continuing stupidity of TOCs ordering new trains with no end gangway connections; I really can't understand why you would spec that when there are clear advantages to having through connections?!

 

[185]

This demonstrates the continuing stupidity of TOCs ordering new trains with no end gangway connections; I really can't understand why you would spec that when there are clear advantages to having through connections?!

On the other hand the cab is ace. No draughty middle door and a great big window.

 

[BestWestern]

On the other hand the cab is ace. No draughty middle door and a great big window.

That is true I guess. Not so easy for Drivers to stop at a signal and take a sly pee without getting down though!

 

[VP185]

It must be remembered that the main duty of a guard is to ensure the safety of those on the train and to aid in the safe running of the train. Revenue collection is not the main duty of a guard.

 

[BestWestern]

It must be remembered that the main duty of a guard is to ensure the safety of those on the train and to aid in the safe running of the train. Revenue collection is not the main duty of a guard.

Very true of course, but neither of the above is an excuse for said Guard to spend the whole journey in the back cab, as is sometimes implied

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I believe I have read previously that Northern and possibly TPE have a policy of closing the train doors at a station from the rear of the train, though I am sure there is a guard or two that could correct me on that. I have seen guards, for both those TOCs, midway through ticket checks open the doors at a station from midway down the train and walk to the back to close them when everyone has boarded/alighted.

 

[Anvil1984]

I believe I have read previously that Northern and possibly TPE have a policy of closing the train doors at a station from the rear of the train, though I am sure there is a guard or two that could correct me on that. I have seen guards, for both those TOCs, midway through ticket checks open the doors at a station from midway down the train and walk to the back to close them when everyone has boarded/alighted.

The Northern current policy is to close the doors from anywhere apart from the very front (however some depots do the doors from the back each time).

On our 142s, 144s, 150s and 156s (except for the Scotrail ones we work) we only have panels at the very front and the rear of the unit (and technically 153s but that's for another reason)

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's not a rulebook thing, but I know a lot of guards prefer to be based in the rear set just in case the train becomes divided for some reason. It's highly unlikely to ever happen, and of course the guard will check tickets in both sets if possible but being in the rear set is something that has been discussed at length in meetings, certainly at Chiltern.

 

[trickyvegas]

I believe I have read previously that Northern and possibly TPE have a policy of closing the train doors at a station from the rear of the train, though I am sure there is a guard or two that could correct me on that. I have seen guards, for both those TOCs, midway through ticket checks open the doors at a station from midway down the train and walk to the back to close them when everyone has boarded/alighted.

This is not the case on one of 323 services I regularly use whereas the guard will be working their way down the train doing tickets and open and close from the nearest door at each stop.

 

[tbtc]

Give the drivers responsibility for safety and for controlling doors (as happens on plenty of busy lines elsewhere in the UK) and the Guard could concentrate on revenue (so perhaps no need for large blockades of G4S staff at certain stations to compensate for the lack of ticket checks).

As Northern uses a large number of stations with no ticket purchasing facilities (or at least no staff) there's more need for them to get revenue collection on board dealt with. I've suggested in the past having additional staff working between key stations to help check tickets (like Wakefield - Leeds, Bradford Interchange - Leeds, Meadowhall - Sheffield, Bolton - Manchester Victoria, Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly) as a half way house between getting full ticket checks done on each service and requiring G4S blockades.

 

[tirphil]

As Northern uses a large number of stations with no ticket purchasing facilities (or at least no staff) there's more need for them to get revenue collection on board dealt with. I've suggested in the past having additional staff working between key stations to help check tickets (like Wakefield - Leeds, Bradford Interchange - Leeds, Meadowhall - Sheffield, Bolton - Manchester Victoria, Stockport - Manchester Piccadilly) as a half way house between getting full ticket checks done on each service and requiring G4S blockades.

And this already happens on a number of services on The Cambrian Coast where one guard is the train guard and has responsibility for the safety of the train and revenue collection and a second guard concentrates on revenue collection only.

 

[LCC106]

Was on the 07:19 Buxton to Man Pic and 12:52 return today - both 2 units, sat in the front unit on both occasions and on neither one was there an RPA to collect fares. This is different from other observations above. I guess it depends to some extent on availability of staff, although I think a lot of revenue will have been missed on the 1st train especially...

 

[Starmill]

Some very interesting points coming out here.

Quite often, one is a guard, one is an RPA on double units. Otherwise, one could a guard going pass (passenger) as part of his shift. A third likelyhood is either a guard being minded or out road learning.

At TPE, unlike Northern, there is an easement which allows guards to safely do tickets in both portions of the train when possible. This is supposedly due to the amount of additional communication equipment in both portions of the modern trains.

Not as efficient as a certain tram company, eh

It had crossed my mind that they might be being trained, but it didn't seem like it. I don't know what else I would have expected though tbf. I'm afraid your point about an "easement" has totally lost me, sorry.

And as for your last point, do I know you from "somewhere else"?

How so? It's not a complex idea. There is, on most systems, one person on the train. The driver! Hence Driver Only Operation.

They do normally. It could be that the guard was busy in the rear unit dealing with passengers who had invalid tickets.

Now then, lets get this straight Mr go-and-google-it, I'm aware of what the abbreviation stands for. I also know what the concept is and how it is supposed to work. What I don't understand is the principle behind its application (if indeed there is one).

Just how safety critical is the role of a guard on a train these days? I'm quite taken by the answer; rather a lot actually. As someone helpfully pointed out, it was the original purpose of having the second member of staff on the train in the first place. But does the fact that - as was pointed out to me in another thread - 12 car 377s are operated with only the driver on them on a daily basis prove this to be false? Well, no. It just exemplifies the problem which I suspect is the biggest cause of inefficiency in all productive industries, but especially this one: inconsistency. Either DOO is a risk to the safety of hundreds of thousands of passengers on a daily basis, which surely must be unacceptable and us up north are sleeping better at night because of it - OR are Northern and others literally ****ing money down the drain being too slow to catch on to something that is perfectly safe and a significant efficiency driver.

Obviously, different journeys have different characteristics, and perhaps there is nobody suggesting that DOO would be suitable for the operation of a 390 form Euston to Glasgow, but in this case - where is the line drawn? What qualifies as a commuter train? Journey time - or distance? Or the type of train? Or number of passengers? I think its safe to say that for the moment, nobody really knows, but in that case - how can we find out?

As for the G4S blockades, please Northern - anything but them! Or if they must stay, actually give them some training.

And I have seen guards from both TOCs open and close the doors from either half way along the train, at the rear cab, or a combination of the two. The thing is - how much of their safety-based role is involved in this? Or is the main part of that the fact that there is a second well-trained human on the train and that may be required in an emergency? Loving the system on the Cambrian Coast, but I can't imagine its cheap for ATW - and hence not overly practical.
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That is true I guess. Not so easy for Drivers to stop at a signal and take a sly pee without getting down though!

Hahaha! So that's what they're doing is it :grin:

I don't imagine its very practical if you're female...

 

[RPI]

A lot of guards use the argument that revenue collection is not a priority as an excuse to do sweet FA, however, if they turned around tomorrow and said that they were making all trains DOO then the same guards would claim that they take so many £000's a year in order to justify their jobs! I know on FGW conductors are able to work both portions of the train in the case of non-gangwayed vehicles and are able to operate the doors from where they deem a safe position depending on where they are, it is different on HST's though as some stations with short platforms require SDO (Selective Door Opening) and otherwise (on long platforms) the TM is generally able to release the doors anywhere but dispatch from the rear 3 coaches.