How many drivers can travel in the cab?

[GodAtum]

Was standing at the driver's end of the platform waiting for a SWT train. There looked like two drivers standing there also and when the train came in one of them said to the other "you can take this one, I'll wait for the next". Couldn't he just sit in the passenger sections? or maybe there was some reason he needed to ride with the driver?

 

[W230]

We're allowed 4* in the cab (or 5 if there is a green pass holder accredited to assess/instruct).

I think it must be a TOC by TOC policy because when I asked to ride in the cab of a South Eastern service I was told they were only allowed two in the cab.

It's up to the driver though at the end of the day though. If they don't want anyone else in their cab then no-one goes in their cab.

The driver wanting to ride in the front may have been as part of route learning. Bit of a crap view when you're in with the passengers.

A lot of the drivers I work with won't sit with the passengers under any circumstances. It doesn't bother me at the moment although I discovered the other day why they don't like to - a load of abuse about the service being crap/wedged/expensive etc. And I discovered they didn't want an explanation - they just wanted a moan.

 

[tsr]

I've seen 6 in London Underground (Subsurface) train cabs before on special occasions (train in service), and indeed I saw 4 in a cab only the other day in more normal circumstances.

 

[Monty]

Was standing at the driver's end of the platform waiting for a SWT train. There looked like two drivers standing there also and when the train came in one of them said to the other "you can take this one, I'll wait for the next". Couldn't he just sit in the passenger sections? or maybe there was some reason he needed to ride with the driver?

Two words: Route Learning, SWT have a lot of recently passed out drivers who are now doing their routes, and of course the only real way to gain any practical knowledge is to sit in the secondman's seat. Look on the bright side, it's one less seat being taken up in the passenger saloons.

Edit:- I had forgotten another reason you may see two people in the cab could be a trainee driving under instruction.

 

[asylumxl]

Really it depends on the size of the drivers and space available in the cab.

To work out how many drivers can travel in the cab, please refer to the following article:

Click me!

 

[ex-railwayman]

We're allowed 4* in the cab (or 5 if there is a green pass holder accredited to assess/instruct).

The driver wanting to ride in the front may have been as part of route learning. Bit of a crap view when you're in with the passengers.

Blimey, 5 peeps in 1 cab, how unbearable, I wonder who sits on who's lap........

Route learners should be seated in the cab anyway, as they need to distinguish scenic landmarks, signalling, speedposts, etc, etc, something you can't do whilst standing up, or, leaning forward looking over someone's shoulder, and I certainly wouldn't want to do that in this weather anyway, heat and other distractions affects concentration, which is not the best way to train any driver.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[Antman]

On this subject I was suprised to see three coppers get into a District Line cab at Earls Court, the train was packed with football fans. I couldn't help thinking that the coppers should be amongst them keeping law and order.

 

[A-driver]

On this subject I was suprised to see three coppers get into a District Line cab at Earls Court, the train was packed with football fans. I couldn't help thinking that the coppers should be amongst them keeping law and order.

There most likely were coppers in the back to but they often sit up front to as they can respond to passenger alarms etc easier.

Plus some policemen are enthusiasts to and like to ask for a cab ride.

 

[southerner2174]

managed 6 of us in the back cab of a 456 on the 0042 out of victoria one night

 

[dk1]

The more the merrier in my opinion. Usually its not more than 2 though. A recent fatality ended up with no less than myself & 7 others in the cab of a 90. That was a bit much to be honest.

 

[IanXC]

Route learners should be seated in the cab anyway, as they need to distinguish scenic landmarks, signalling, speedposts, etc, etc, something you can't do whilst standing up, or, leaning forward looking over someone's shoulder, and I certainly wouldn't want to do that in this weather anyway, heat and other distractions affects concentration, which is not the best way to train any driver.

I seem to remember at least 4 HT drivers plus a West Coast route conductor entering the cab of a 180 when they were learning Goole to Doncaster via Wakefield Kirkgate (!).

 

[wensley]

I seem to remember at least 4 HT drivers plus a West Coast route conductor entering the cab of a 180 when they were learning Goole to Doncaster via Wakefield Kirkgate (!).

Is that even possible on a 180?!

 

[IanXC]

Is that even possible on a 180?!

I think it was probably a case of needs must! As an OAO having your only route chopped in half, and not having any crew who sign any diversionary routes (given your 2 signed routes are closed) probably brings the matter into sharp focus!

 

[Darren R]

Blimey, 5 peeps in 1 cab, how unbearable, I wonder who sits on who's lap........

Now you know how we feel like further down the carriage!

 

[Mojo]

When I was training my Instructor and I picked up a train that was part way through the route. In the cab already was a member of station staff on his way home and the driver we relieved also stayed up the front as it was the end of his shift and he was travelling straight home. Four of us was a bit of a squeeze!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Err... member of station staff in the cab?

 

[notadriver]

Must have been in BR days when the rules weren't so strict. Now only other drivers are allowed in (and many TOCs allow or require them to pass up front). I think guards should be allowed in as they used to be in BR days for route learning purposes.

 

[BestWestern]

Err... member of station staff in the cab?

I'm surprised to hear that coppers are allowed in the cab on LUL, and en masse too by the sounds of it!

Must have been in BR days when the rules weren't so strict. Now only other drivers are allowed in (and many TOCs allow or require them to pass up front). I think guards should be allowed in as they used to be in BR days for route learning purposes.

It's fair to suggest though that Guards don't usually see the route from the same view as a Driver, though I personally agree that if you are going to learn a route it helps to be able to view it from the best view, up front, even if just to get your initial bearings.

Was standing at the driver's end of the platform waiting for a SWT train. There looked like two drivers standing there also and when the train came in one of them said to the other "you can take this one, I'll wait for the next". Couldn't he just sit in the passenger sections? or maybe there was some reason he needed to ride with the driver?

The chap waiting for 'the next one' could have been a Driver manager or competence assessor, those guys tend to like to float about a bit and will often travel in the front cab, sometimes taking the controls to keep themselves 'fresh'.

We're allowed 4* in the cab (or 5 if there is a green pass holder accredited to assess/instruct).

I think it must be a TOC by TOC policy because when I asked to ride in the cab of a South Eastern service I was told they were only allowed two in the cab.

Indeed it does seem to vary. At our place it's no longer permitted for even a qualified Driver to ride up front unless they have a specific reason for being there, i.e. road refreshing/learning etc. No more casual sitting up there chatting! If the Driver in charge of the train is recently qualified (still PQA), then nobody is allowed at all even for the reasons above, with the exception of Managers doing assessments etc.

 

[notadriver]

I've found in most cases where drivers can pass up front, they usually don't unless they are mates with the driver or the train is overcrowded. The seat on the second man side isn't that comfortable in most units and you can't use play with your mobile phone or ring home in the leading cab!

 

[RPM]

At our place it's no longer permitted for even a qualified Driver to ride up front unless they have a specific reason for being there, i.e. road refreshing/learning etc. No more casual sitting up there chatting! If the Driver in charge of the train is recently qualified (still PQA), then nobody is allowed at all even for the reasons above, with the exception of Managers doing assessments etc.

Exactly the same applies here. Driver Managers are allowed to ride up front casually (i.e. not specifically to carry out a ride assessment) but that is it. Sometimes they offer to drive, which is nice

Travelling pass, we invariably use the back cab or an intermediate cab.

 

[A-driver]

Exactly the same applies here. Driver Managers are allowed to ride up front casually (i.e. not specifically to carry out a ride assessment) but that is it. Sometimes they offer to drive, which is nice

Travelling pass, we invariably use the back cab or an intermediate cab.

Our place is a grey area for travelling in the cab, technically it's a no but they are allowed and booked to do so on the TL side so we can see no reason why we can't out side.

Plus I can't see what is wrong with it-2 pairs of eyes are better than one and sorry but I don't buy the 'its a distraction' argument-we are professionals and I'm not likely to distract another driver and cause an incident by sitting next to him or even chatting to him.


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[notadriver]

+1 100% agreed A-Driver. We are trained to manage distraction.

 

[telstarbox]

On 'lively' trains, does the noise from the passenger area get distracting?

 

[notadriver]

I would definitely say so. A step up in concentration levels is required (for me anyway) ..

 

[jopsuk]

With respect to the coppers in the LU cab, this may be a special arrangement for trains busy with football fans. There's very little a cop can do inside a packed carriage, but if carried in the cab they could at stations be easily let onto the platform before the doors to the rest of the train are opened. and thus more easily police the platforms.

 

[A-driver]

With respect to the coppers in the LU cab, this may be a special arrangement for trains busy with football fans. There's very little a cop can do inside a packed carriage, but if carried in the cab they could at stations be easily let onto the platform before the doors to the rest of the train are opened. and thus more easily police the platforms.

That is the tactic often used on the mainline-I have known coppers to ride up front on football trains from south bermondsey (millwall) and Finsbury park doing exactly what you described.


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[Mojo]

The LU Rule book allows the following to travel in the cab in the course of their duty:
- Holders of a valid cab permit
- LU operational staff in uniform
- Uniformed police officers on presentation of warrant card
- Fire brigade or ambulance personnel in uniform
- Emergency Response Unit staff
- HMRI (ORR Safety directorate) or RAIB staff on presentation of ID
- Infrastructure company technical staff, track staff or train technicians wearing appropriate high visibility clothing
- Transplant or Test train operators undertaking road refresher training

 

[thelongestroad]

It's fair to suggest though that Guards don't usually see the route from the same view as a Driver, though I personally agree that if you are going to learn a route it helps to be able to view it from the best view, up front, even if just to get your initial bearings.

Would a route learning guard usually travel in the passenger saloon then? Or the rear cab? Or does it vary?

 

[jopsuk]

That is the tactic often used on the mainline-I have known coppers to ride up front on football trains from south bermondsey (millwall) and Finsbury park doing exactly what you described.

Makes a heck of a lot of sense- very little point in being crammed in a carriage where they can't move.

 

[BestWestern]

Would a route learning guard usually travel in the passenger saloon then? Or the rear cab? Or does it vary?

Yup, back cab on units and in the coaches on an HST (usually first class, unofficially ). Guards should never be up front except in a couple of circumstances detailed in the rule book.