How long should you wait?

[DeeGee]

I sometimes like to have a read of the Disputes and Prosecutions board, and I've seen that quite often folk say that they board a train because there is a long queue at their origin station.

Which got me thinking. On Monday as I was in a nearby city with a station with a travel centre, I took my RTV and bought some advance tickets. Last time I did this at Grimsby Town, there was only one window, there was a problem with the transaction, it was a summer Saturday and the queue ended up going out to the car park.

This time, at the bigger station, there was still only one window open but no queue. The transaction was quie straightforward (apart from first being sold an Airport Advance instead of one to Piccadilly, but I noticed before the tickets were printed as the fare was wrong) but at several points the clerk, a very helpful chap, apologised that the computer was showing an egg-timer. This meant, through no fault of anybody's, that the transaction took several minutes from start to finish. I had the times, tickets and fares that I wanted, which helped.

There was only one window open, and I became aware of a queue forming while I was carrying out my transaction, so byt the time I finished it was four pax deep.

Now, what I was wondering is, the pax at the rear of the queue could potentially have been waiting for five minutes, if the pax behind me also wanted a complicated itinerary then that could have been 10 minutes.

Would the pax at the rear reasonably expect to be able to leave the queue to catch a train after such a delay? I'm assuming they might have wanted a ticket not available on the TVM which is why they were queuing. Or is it really a question of getting to the station extra-early on the off-chance there's a bloke like me buying Advances with an RTV in front of you?

 

[maniacmartin]

If the passenger had just boarded the train, they would be guilty of the strict liability Railway Byelaw offence.

TOCs have targets in their Passenger Charters to meet regarding queueing times at ticket offices, but if these targets aren't met, then it does not provide an excuse for the passenger who just boards a train.

 

[razor89]

TPE's passenger charter states that 'If you want to buy a rail ticket you should not have to wait more
than five minutes at peak times and three minutes during other times.
Peak times, which can vary at different stations, are shown on our
welcome poster at the entrance to each station.'

Booking office staff *should* be aware of this and should try to manage their queues accordingly. For example, if I've been serving one customer for a long time and I'm aware that someone has been waiting over 5 mins I can offer them to buy their ticket at the next available opportunity. Every situation is different though and it comes down to good judgement of how to deal with it.

 

[455driver]

TPE's passenger charter states that 'If you want to buy a rail ticket you should not have to wait more
than five minutes at peak times and three minutes during other times.
Peak times, which can vary at different stations, are shown on our
welcome poster at the entrance to each station.'

Booking office staff *should* be aware of this and should try to manage their queues accordingly. For example, if I've been serving one customer for a long time and I'm aware that someone has been waiting over 5 mins I can offer them to buy their ticket at the next available opportunity. Every situation is different though and it comes down to good judgement of how to deal with it.

This is the important bit, it does not say that you do not have to wait, only that you should not have to.

If you have to wait longer than so be it otherwise the railway byelaws come into effect.

 

[DeeGee]

So, when telling pax to arrive at the station with enough time to buy their ticket, is there a reasonable expectation? Say I turn up at GMB at 16:15 for the 16:34 train, when the next one after that is 17:34. Is that cutting it fine?

Doesn't affect me that much as I almost always buy in advance, but I'm just interested.

 

[bb21]

So, when telling pax to arrive at the station with enough time to buy their ticket, is there a reasonable expectation? Say I turn up at GMB at 16:15 for the 16:34 train, when the next one after that is 17:34. Is that cutting it fine?

Doesn't affect me that much as I almost always buy in advance, but I'm just interested.

If you end up getting prosecuted in these circumstances, then I would imagine it being a very good story to go to the gutter press with, and would imagine that Passenger Focus would be keen to intervene.
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So, when telling pax to arrive at the station with enough time to buy their ticket, is there a reasonable expectation? Say I turn up at GMB at 16:15 for the 16:34 train, when the next one after that is 17:34. Is that cutting it fine?

Doesn't affect me that much as I almost always buy in advance, but I'm just interested.

If you end up getting prosecuted in these circumstances, then I would imagine it being a very good story to go to the gutter press with, and would imagine that Passenger Focus would be keen to intervene.

The line is less clear if you only allowed 5 minutes I think. If you left 10, you would have more of a case but if it were 20 minutes then I think you are likely to have everyone on your side.

 

[Be3G]

I've had a similar dilemma too. I once arrived at Enfield Lock station on a Sunday with just over 10 minutes to go until the once-an-hour train was due. The ticket office didn't open on Sundays, and there was only a single TVM – which is normally fine to handle the traffic at the station. On this particular day though the queue to use the machine contained several people, none of whom seemed that confident using the machine. Fortunately I just had time to get my ticket before the train arrived, but whilst waiting in the queue I was starting to wonder what else I could do – the best thing I could come up with was take a photograph with the queue and the platform clock and try to use that as a mitigating factor if I were challenged. I certainly didn't fancy hanging around an hour for the next train – in fact, I would have probably cancelled the journey and gone home, meaning less revenue for the railways.

Funnily enough an RPI checked my ticket on the journey too! So I asked her what I should have done had the queue not reduced quickly enough. She told me it would have been OK to just explain the situation and buy a ticket on the train. If only that could be relied upon as being the case and not an invitation for prosecution.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Would this not be dependent on where you are ? If you didn't want to wait for an indeterminate amount of time couldn't you just decide to pay a penalty fare ? Also, if the queue at a ticket office is obviously very long and your journey relatively short could you not plead that the earliest available opportunity to pay for your travel would be at your destination rather than your originating station ?

 

[Abpj17]

I guess it depends on whether tickets are regularly sold on the trains too and the frequency of the service. An hourly service would be enough for many passengers to get on without a ticket I suspect (whether they are prosecuted or not is a different matter)

 

[Deerfold]

Would this not be dependent on where you are ? If you didn't want to wait for an indeterminate amount of time couldn't you just decide to pay a penalty fare ?

If a train company thinks you're deliberately dodging they may decide to prosecute - it's not a passenger's decision to choose to be able to pay a penalty fare.

 

[EM2]

Also, if the queue at a ticket office is obviously very long and your journey relatively short could you not plead that the earliest available opportunity to pay for your travel would be at your destination rather than your originating station ?

Interesting point. A ten-minute wait to buy a ticket for an eight-minute journey would mean the earliest opportunity would be at destination

 

[drbdrb]

If you have to wait longer than so be it otherwise the railway byelaws come into effect.

Wonderful to see that the railways aspire to deliver premium customer service.

 

[SussexMan]

Interesting point. A ten-minute wait to buy a ticket for an eight-minute journey would mean the earliest opportunity would be at destination

Not if there was a three minute wait at the destination!

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't think it works like this in the case law. It is the earliest as in the place you are at earliest, not the earliest possible transaction time.

 

[yorkie]

DeeGee you could ask the Train Company what time you should arrive to ensure you have sufficient time. I would be interested to hear their response.

 

[DeeGee]

DeeGee you could ask the Train Company what time you should arrive to ensure you have sufficient time. I would be interested to hear their response.

I'd actually be quite interested on FTPE's take on the matter.

As things stand, I think at Grimsby it'd be an OK situation leaving the queue. FTPE has commercial guards as there are unmanned stations further down the line - I'd guess politely asking the guard before boarding would allow a railcard discount or special fare if required.

I don't know if the EMT guard's a commercial one, but they're in platform 3 for a long while before leaving so if there was a massive queue then it'd be a simple matter of going and asking, I suppose. It would be the EMT to Newark which would be the one that would be worst if you missed it.

There are no penalty fares to be had, and I haven't seen an RPI on a train from GMB in the 13 years I've been living up here.

I suppose it's the old adage of asking before boarding...