How long left for Sprinters

[Philip]

First of all, what was the reason for labelling the 15x trains as 'Sprinters', and why 'Super Sprinters' for 153/155/156? They are no quicker than Pacers and fairly poor in acceleration. And what makes a 153 'super' compared with a 150?

But when is it likely that the Sprinter family of trains will be scrapped? Are they likely to have all gone by 2030, with CAF stock beginning to shape the future of commuting and short/medium distance rail travel? I'm excluding 158s and 159s btw, as it looks likely that they have at least another 20 years left.

 

[superalbs]

I'm honestly surprised 150s have lasted so long. They are awful.

 

[Dr Hoo]

First of all, what was the reason for labelling the 15x trains as 'Sprinters', and why 'Super Sprinters' for 153/155/156? They are no quicker than Pacers and fairly poor in acceleration. And what makes a 153 'super' compared with a 150?

Can I ask if you remember the Modernisation Plan DMUs (especially as they had become in the mid-to-late 1980s)?

The 153s came from converting 155s. The key features of the Super-Sprinter family, compared to the Class 150s, were 23m vehicle length, end doors and 2+2 seating - so more suited to longer runs. Also the first attempt at 'disabled accessible' toilets on the Class 156s. These were very well-received units on many routes.

 

[bramling]

I'm honestly surprised 150s have lasted so long. They are awful.

Depends how one defines awful. From the operators point of view they are fairly reliable, and seat a lot of passengers into a 40m train (or at least they did until the accessible toilets were fitted).

On that score they will likely continue for a bit, certainly I reckon it’s a good bet at least some of the fleet will see the 2030s. Ditto at least some 158/159, and possibly 156 too.

 

[Neptune]

Compared to what they replaced (1st gen DMU’s) they justified the title when built in the 1980’s. At the time they felt like how a modern train feels today but then life was blissfully that bit slower in the 80’s.

Also the Pacers as built had the much more sluggish Leyland/SEG set up. The Cummins/Voith conversion came in the early 90’s.

Sprinter was the name given to the 20m suburban layout 150/151 units, Super Sprinter was designated to the 23m longer distance layout 155/156 units and Express Sprinter to the 23m ‘bells and whistles for the time’ 158 units.

153’s were converted from 35 of the 42 x 155’s once 158’s were being introduced and retained the super sprinter moniker.

Agreed that if you look at today’s far more technologically advanced trains then sprinters aren’t the quickest anymore but to be fair which company that runs them actually refers to them as sprinters. At northern they are known as the legacy fleet.

I know that today everybody demands new trains with all the 21st century distractions and the 150’s have recently come in for much more heavy criticism especially since pacer withdrawal, but the sprinters have done a good job over the years and even little things like USB’s and display screens are appearing on them to at least give them a slightly more 21st century feel before the eventual inevitable replacement in the next few years.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm honestly surprised 150s have lasted so long. They are awful.

They are bad for the passenger but they are simple and highly reliable.

 

[HST43257]

I think that the 153s, 158s and 159s should be around the longest. 153s mainly because they work well as a third coach with 158s or on their own on branch lines.

156s may stay for longer in Scotland than anywhere in the country, though they’ll lose the need for some when the East Kilbride and Kilmarnock routes are electrified. Would be good to have a consistent 2 coaches for Oban and 4 coaches for Fort William, with 2 continuing to Mallaig.

 

[Energy]

I think that the 153s,

No chance, TfW are retiring their's (I think they are mainly 769 and 230 cover), EMR are soon to retire all of their's and Northern have plans in the future to retire their's, only Scotrails are remaining and they are a bit special. The 153s have been killed of by requiring a PRM toilet (which significantly reduces capacity), a PRM exemption or to be coupled to a PRM unit.

 

[Grecian 1998]

The Sprinters accelerated quickly compared to their predecessors when introduced in the 1980s, just as the HSTs accelerated quickly compared to loco hauled trains in the 1970s. Technology marches on. It may be that one day the Voyagers and 195s are seen as slow accelerating (although there will be a point at which acceleration can't realistically get any faster).

GWR and TfW's 150/2s are much more pleasant than other 150s due to 2+2 seating with armrests and wider aisles. The gangways also help prevent overcrowding. There doesn't seem to be any discontentment at their use on Exmouth - Paignton services, although then 143s were working on that route well into last year. They're reasonably reliable and have 1/3 2/3 doors which is important for commuter short-distance operations.

Apart from 153s, I expect all the Sprinters will continue in service until they become too unreliable. In the case of the 159s that could be a very long time away given they've been very well maintained over the years.

 

[hexagon789]

First of all, what was the reason for labelling the 15x trains as 'Sprinters', and why 'Super Sprinters' for 153/155/156? They are no quicker than Pacers and fairly poor in acceleration. And what makes a 153 'super' compared with a 150?

But when is it likely that the Sprinter family of trains will be scrapped? Are they likely to have all gone by 2030, with CAF stock beginning to shape the future of commuting and short/medium distance rail travel? I'm excluding 158s and 159s btw, as it looks likely that they have at least another 20 years left.

Not speed but quality, the 155 onwards were supposed to be for longer distance services and of higher internal quality thus an improvement on the 150s, thus the "Super" appellation.

The faster, 90mph 158s were labelled "Express" Sprinters because they were designed for the faster long-distance services.

 

[Energy]

It may be that one day the Voyagers and 195s are seen as slow accelerating (although there will be a point at which acceleration can't realistically get any faster).

We are approaching the limit for EMUs, the Norwegian Flirts (very similar to the GA ones) have a software limit on their acceleration to stop people falling over (think its the Norwegian ones, definitely a Stadler).

 

[Philip]

The 'Super Sprinter ' title seems a bit ironic in hindsight; whilst 156s I think have and continue to live up to their tag, the 155s and 153s seem to have generated negative reviews even compared with 150s.

I know 158s are classed as part of the 'Sprinter' family, but I think they're a couple of notches further up than any of the other Sprinters. They're an intercity DMU and arguably a smaller forerunner of the Voyager fleet.

 

[hexagon789]

I know 158s are classed as part of the 'Sprinter' family, but I think they're a couple of notches further up than any of the other Sprinters. They're an intercity DMU and arguably a smaller forerunner of the Voyager fleet.

Which is why exactly BR called them "Express Sprinters", designed to be equivalent to or even better in some cases than many Provincial InterCity type routes existing stock.

 

[Gareth]

I wouldn't say sprinters are awful. They're just getting on a bit now. Otherwise, they're not massively outside the boundaries of general "no frills" commuter-style trains you find home and abroad.

 

[30907]

IIRC the name was appropriated from the Netherlands, where NS has applied it to its new generation of regional units.

 

[Bald Rick]

Having commuted on a route that had Modernisation plan DMUs on it, the advent of the Sprinters was worthy of the name, and when the Super Sprinters turned up, they were super.

Similarly, in the late 80s there was a Fiat Uno SPORT - which had a 0-60 time of about 9.5 seconds, and, err, a sunroof. Hardly sporty by today’s comparison, but back then...

 

[TheSel]

They are bad for the passenger but they are simple and highly reliable.

Which are simple and reliable? Sprinters or passengers?

 

[JonathanH]

Having commuted on a route that had Modernisation plan DMUs on it, the advent of the Sprinters was worthy of the name, and when the Super Sprinters turned up, they were super.

Indeed, wall to wall carpet, an 'open' seating layout, universal toilet - there were plenty of innovations in the Super Sprinters that really did make them 'super' relative to what had gone before, even if we now judge them by the standards of the 2020s.

 

[Bevan Price]

The 'Super Sprinter ' title seems a bit ironic in hindsight; whilst 156s I think have and continue to live up to their tag, the 155s and 153s seem to have generated negative reviews even compared with 150s.

I know 158s are classed as part of the 'Sprinter' family, but I think they're a couple of notches further up than any of the other Sprinters. They're an intercity DMU and arguably a smaller forerunner of the Voyager fleet.

The main problem with 153s and 155s is that too many seats have been crammed into them....
I suspect that many 150s and 156s may last until another big batch of electrification work is completed -- or until it becomes unaffordable to obtain / provide spares to keep them in working order.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main problem with 153s and 155s is that too many seats have been crammed into them....
I suspect that many 150s and 156s may last until another big batch of electrification work is completed -- or until it becomes unaffordable to obtain / provide spares to keep them in working order.

Wouldn't totally surprise me if the thing that does for them is the engines being too old to pass emissions regulations, and it not being worth replacing the engines due to their age.

 

[DB]

The main problem with 153s and 155s is that too many seats have been crammed into them....

Indeed, and especially noticeable on those 153s with the bulky Richmond seats.

The Chapman seat ones aren't so bad - not great, but not the worst out there by a long way. Certainly prefereble to 150s, which are generally pretty unpleasant, especially the Northern ones with their poor layout.

 

[Energy]

I suspect that many 150s and 156s may last until another big batch of electrification work is completed -- or until it becomes unaffordable to obtain / provide spares to keep them in working order.

150s and 156s suffer from being loads of them and it being politically unacceptable for new DMUs, I hope they will be replaced by electrification.
153s will be retired due to PRM issues, with an accessible toilet there are just too few seats as well as general factors like age.
155s will probably be retired due to there only being 7 of them with the 153s having been retired meaning that they become a microfleet.
158s are still good trains and will last for longer, they look inside significantly younger than other sprinters.

 

[route101]

Reckon the Class 156s and 158s will last another decade at least.

 

[Bikeman78]

IIRC the name was appropriated from the Netherlands, where NS has applied it to its new generation of regional units.

Indeed, and they really do sprint. 0-70 mph in 40 seconds. I've never been on any train that accelerates faster.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's perhaps worth noting that only some (most?) of the 156s and (as far as I can tell) none of the 155s carried "Super Sprinter" branding, just "Sprinter". The 158s of course never said "Express Sprinter" on the side. Some of them said "Express" on the side, which my late dad used to joke was because they were so short that you wouldn't know it was an express unless it had it written on!

 

[Wolfie]

I'm honestly surprised 150s have lasted so long. They are awful.

Cramming more seats in to them to try to meet overcrowding certainly didn't help.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2021 ==

Indeed, wall to wall carpet, an 'open' seating layout, universal toilet - there were plenty of innovations in the Super Sprinters that really did make them 'super' relative to what had gone before, even if we now judge them by the standards of the 2020s.

Agreed.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Jan 2021 ==

The Sprinters accelerated quickly compared to their predecessors when introduced in the 1980s, just as the HSTs accelerated quickly compared to loco hauled trains in the 1970s. Technology marches on. It may be that one day the Voyagers and 195s are seen as slow accelerating (although there will be a point at which acceleration can't realistically get any faster).

GWR and TfW's 150/2s are much more pleasant than other 150s due to 2+2 seating with armrests and wider aisles. The gangways also help prevent overcrowding. There doesn't seem to be any discontentment at their use on Exmouth - Paignton services, although then 143s were working on that route well into last year. They're reasonably reliable and have 1/3 2/3 doors which is important for commuter short-distance operations.

Apart from 153s, I expect all the Sprinters will continue in service until they become too unreliable. In the case of the 159s that could be a very long time away given they've been very well maintained over the years.

Re your first para l'm not sure, given that new diesel stock procurement is Increasingly unacceptable, that you will see the next technological change that you mention.

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's perhaps worth noting that only some (most?) of the 156s and (as far as I can tell) none of the 155s carried "Super Sprinter" branding, just "Sprinter". The 158s of course never said "Express Sprinter" on the side. Some of them said "Express" on the side, which my late dad used to joke was because they were so short that you wouldn't know it was an express unless it had it written on!

Back in 1987-ish the Class 155s were really the 'proof of concept' of an upgraded vehicle better able to address then-prevalent coach competition on some longer-distance Provincial routes. This was part of John Edmonds' vision as the new Sector Director in succession to John Welsby's more 'cost minimisation' approach. Well written up in Modern Railways at the time and the definitive Regional Railways Story sector history. The term/brand Super Sprinter was not used initially.

Of the Class 156s the Strathclyde livery sets weren't branded as Super Sprinter at the very least. Still excellent trains for their era though.

 

[xotGD]

Nothing 'Super' about Sprinters that replaced loco-hauled trains.

I reckon we've got another decade of them. One problem is what do you replace them with? Hydrogen? Batteries? Electrification? Surely not more new build DMUs.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back in 1987-ish the Class 155s were really the 'proof of concept' of an upgraded vehicle better able to address then-prevalent coach competition on some longer-distance Provincial routes. This was part of John Edmonds' vision as the new Sector Director in succession to John Welsby's more 'cost minimisation' approach. Well written up in Modern Railways at the time and the definitive Regional Railways Story sector history. The term/brand Super Sprinter was not used initially.

Of the Class 156s the Strathclyde livery sets weren't branded as Super Sprinter at the very least. Still excellent trains for their era though.

I'd momentarily forgotten about the Strathclyde orange units being delivered in that livery. I was just referring to the Provincial units:- some of which had "Super Sprinter" branding whilst others had plain "Sprinter", the same as the 150s and the non-WYPTE 155s.

On a related note, I have of course seen photos of the prototype Leyland-bodied mk1, which I think looks pretty cool from the outside... the interior on the other hand has the same problem as the 155s: too many seats packed in too tightly.

 

[DustyBin]

I actually quite like the 156s, I find them nice units to travel on. They sound good for a DMU in my opinion but that’s very much an enthusiast’s perspective I admit. They are undoubtedly noisy. Like a lot of older trains they’ve strayed onto services for which they weren’t really meant (certainly in the north west anyway).

I think I’ve only travelled on a 155 once, and that was quite recently between York and Leeds. It was ok actually, nothing about it jumped out at me as being bad by any means.

I’ve very rarely travelled on 150s, when I have they’ve seemed adequate for suburban routes if rather cramped. I imagine these will be the first to go (after at least some of the 153s) as they’re the oldest and are designed for the kind of routes most likely to be electrified. They could have another ten years in them yet though, possibly.

Hopefully the 158s (and 159s) have at least another ten years, if looked after they’re decent even by modern standards. They’re not particularly quick and again they’re a bit noisy, but other than that I’m not sure we’ve made a huge amount of progress when it comes to DMUs in the UK?