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Not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.
Hypothetical scenario: Let’s say a 5 car set made up of a 2 and a 3 car 165 arrive into a station at the end of their service. For their next working, there are some short platforms which mean that the rear unit must be locked out, but both units need to get to that working’s destination. Both workings are passenger services. How long will it take for staff to lock out the unit? (let’s say the rear unit is the 3 car). Is there a difference in the time taken in terms of DOO vs guard? Would 12 minutes be enough?
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.
Hypothetical scenario: Let’s say a 5 car set made up of a 2 and a 3 car 165 arrive into a station at the end of their service. For their next working, there are some short platforms which mean that the rear unit must be locked out, but both units need to get to that working’s destination. Both workings are passenger services. How long will it take for staff to lock out the unit? (let’s say the rear unit is the 3 car). Is there a difference in the time taken in terms of DOO vs guard? Would 12 minutes be enough?
To answer your question, locking a unit takes as long as it says in the company guidelines.
Unless they specify another authorised person can help, then timings are based on the guidelines and agreed procedure. It may well be able to be done in x minutes, but if guidelines say it takes y minutes, then it takes y minutes, in order for the diagram to be legal.
As long as guidelines are followed, I can lock a unit up in x minutes,but I'm still allocated y minutes before my next move.
Edit
If I lock a unit up in x minutes, no one will question it.
If I lock a unit up in x minutes and there is an over carry on the ECS, then, as long as I've followed guidelines, even if I only take X minutes, rather than y, I'm not getting a please explain.
Not sure if this is the right place for this, but here goes.
Hypothetical scenario: Let’s say a 5 car set made up of a 2 and a 3 car 165 arrive into a station at the end of their service. For their next working, there are some short platforms which mean that the rear unit must be locked out, but both units need to get to that working’s destination. Both workings are passenger services. How long will it take for staff to lock out the unit? (let’s say the rear unit is the 3 car). Is there a difference in the time taken in terms of DOO vs guard? Would 12 minutes be enough?
Im not 100% but maybe 165s have door deselct, where the guard chooses to not open doors beyond his position, so theres no need to physically lock coaches. 170s certainly have this. Newer electric stock use SDO from beacons on the track or the driver can disable doors from his cab.
Does one have a specific scenario in mind?
There may also be an occassion that the lockout was not planned into the train planning and arisen due to other events occurring on the day.
Im not 100% but maybe 165s have door deselct, where the guard chooses to not open doors beyond his position, so theres no need to physically lock coaches. 170s certainly have this. Newer electric stock use SDO from beacons on the track or the driver can disable doors from his cab.
Interestingly, for Crossrail the public timetable gives zero minutes to clear out a 9-car at Maidenhead. The WTT allows 2 mins though, and in reality they get 3-4 because there’s lots of padding. Typically only one staff member though, except at very busy times.
One minute per vehicle is the guideline in most places. Obviously if you get a stubborn drunk it can take however long it takes to find some suitably trained and authorised muscle.
It’s 5. Never been that many long-term although various trials have been done with 3, 7, 9. Sweep at peak times has to be done in 90 seconds or the timetable starts to accrue delays which knock onto the GWML.
Is a ‘sweep’ of a train that’s booked to terminate anyway before going into a turnback facility (e.g. Elizabeth Line at Paddington) the same as a full ‘lockout’, e.g. for a CrossCountry double Voyager where it may be discovered that there is no relieving second Train Manager in mid-journey? Surely there is a difference between decanting 300 un-prepared passengers with luggage plus arranging unplanned assistance for disabled passengers and a quick walkthrough on the lookout for the odd sleeping drunk or unclaimed items.
Clearing and Securing occurs prior to moving off in ECS. Different tocs will have different requirements, often depending on stock type / length / union agreement
Locking out is the action associated with preventing doors from opening / folk boarding if the vehicles / unit is unable to carry passengers. if this is planned from an origin, it will have an allowance in the train crew diagram if station staff do not undertake the activity. (The same with unlocking at the other end or en-route).
If it is unplanned, there is no timing allowance. It takes as long as it takes to disembark the paying public. How long it takes is relative to the situation.
Is a ‘sweep’ of a train that’s booked to terminate anyway before going into a turnback facility (e.g. Elizabeth Line at Paddington) the same as a full ‘lockout’, e.g. for a CrossCountry double Voyager where it may be discovered that there is no relieving second Train Manager in mid-journey? Surely there is a difference between decanting 300 un-prepared passengers with luggage plus arranging unplanned assistance for disabled passengers and a quick walkthrough on the lookout for the odd sleeping drunk or unclaimed items.
Pretty much - it's just one is planned and one is unplanned! Different stock has a myriad of different ways that it can be locked out and in line with staff agreements - some can just be done with external 'keys' from the outside, some require the stock to be put into a "train clearance" or "off-peak mode" in order to be locked out, some need one on the inside one on the outside etc.
The doors need to be "locked out" in either scenario, but as you say there's going to be a time differential depending on a) how much notice you are giving and b) whether it is expected or not.
The doors need to be "locked out" in either scenario, but as you say there's going to be a time differential depending on a) how much notice you are giving and b) whether it is expected or not.
I may have to disagree, with this.
For example, doors only need be 'secured' once the stock is empty.
Once confirmed empty, doors are secured / closed / disarmed by train crew, stock moves off to next location in ECS.
The next occasion the doors are required to be open, eg post turnback reversal, the does are armed / released and openable either by command of the train crew or the passenger on the platform.
'Locking Out' will prevent the last step occurring.
The doors cannot be armed / released and opened from either the platform or the inside by whomever has undertaken the door opening process.
Once locked out, the process must be reversed to un-lock the vehicle / unit (again, allowance provided to undertake).
You are still able to secure doors by key or button from the external interface (rollingstock dependant) but once 'armed / released' again by the train crew these should then open again the next point of boarding.
Many years ago, I was on a Paddington to North Cotswolds service formed of 2x5 carriage class 800s. It was terminated at Oxford due to being "too long" (the initial plan was to divide the train/lock out the rear 5 at Oxford-don't remember which, just them saying "front 5 for the Cotswolds" or some such).
I did wonder at the time why the plan changed (since taking a few minutes delay to lock out the rear 5 seemed better than detraining 10 coaches worth of people and cancelling the service)? Probably some other operational reason it was not possible, but this thread brought it to mind...
I did wonder at the time why the plan changed (since taking a few minutes delay to lock out the rear 5 seemed better than detraining 10 coaches worth of people and cancelling the service)? Probably some other operational reason it was not possible, but this thread brought it to mind...
South Eastern will happily attach a dead six to a fully occupied six at St. Pancras, providing all doors are secure. (Ecs arrives 2nd after boarding of the rear 6 has commenced).
I see no reason why GWR couldn't confirm the rear set is empty, lock it all up then split. *there may be TOC specific regs at play, I don't know.
In some cases, again regs permitting, it's likely more efficient to detrain the rear, secure and lock out the rear, drag the empty unit about till you can do something else with it. (The XC method, which often includes detching said unit an a third location).
I may have to disagree, with this.
For example, doors only need be 'secured' once the stock is empty.
Once confirmed empty, doors are secured / closed / disarmed by train crew, stock moves off to next location in ECS.
The next occasion the doors are required to be open, eg post turnback reversal, the does are armed / released and openable either by command of the train crew or the passenger on the platform.
'Locking Out' will prevent the last step occurring.
The doors cannot be armed / released and opened from either the platform or the inside by whomever has undertaken the door opening process.
Once locked out, the process must be reversed to un-lock the vehicle / unit (again, allowance provided to undertake).
You are still able to secure doors by key or button from the external interface (rollingstock dependant) but once 'armed / released' again by the train crew these should then open again the next point of boarding.
I think this is going to be stock dependent really. Because there's definitely a difference between 'isolating' a set of doors so they don't reopen again at require manual intervention as opposed to running a train / unit ECS for whatever purpose. Or maybe we are talking at cross-purposes and violently agreeing! I reckon more modern stock is able to more intuitive about this.
South Eastern will happily attach a dead six to a fully occupied six at St. Pancras, providing all doors are secure. (Ecs arrives 2nd after boarding of the rear 6 has commenced).
I see no reason why GWR couldn't confirm the rear set is empty, lock it all up then split. *there may be TOC specific regs at play, I don't know.
In some cases, again regs permitting, it's likely more efficient to detrain the rear, secure and lock out the rear, drag the empty unit about till you can do something else with it. (The XC method, which often includes detching said unit an a third location).
GWR did have an issue some time ago with detaching diagrams basically being removed from the timetable during Covid, so it may have been lost driver competency at the time to find someone who did it. As you say, probably some specific situation which meant that it couldn't be done.
I think this is going to be stock dependent really. Because there's definitely a difference between 'isolating' a set of doors so they don't reopen again at require manual intervention as opposed to running a train / unit ECS for whatever purpose. Or maybe we are talking at cross-purposes and violently agreeing! I reckon more modern stock is able to more intuitive about this.
Think I'll leave the jury in deliberations here.
Youre correct, of course. It is stock / TOC dependant and indeed does vary across the network.
You may have further confuddled by 'isolating a set of doors'. I read that as a set of doors are defective and so cannot be used / isolated (infact, 'locked out use' they will not be armed / released until corrective action taken). B
By extention, all external doors on a vehicle or unit are 'isolated' in the same way / via the same process.
'Locking out' a vehicle within a unit (as opposed to the entire unit) also requires any internal 'vestibule' doors to be secured / isolated as to prevent ingress from the adjacent vehicle(s).
I think the general confusion exists around the myriad of terminology out there that all, essentially, equal "Theses doors cannot be / will not be opened".
Isolating and locking out is a physical intervention to prevent the use of the door by the train crew.
Securing is the physical intervention to prevent the doors from being used again till the train crew wish the to be used (fundamentally from the outside) as we shouldn't be securing doors with people on board as rhey cannot re-open the doors until fhw driver wants. They would need to use the emergency egress equipment in order to exit the train.
[Finally, I am unsure if the emergency egress handle (from inside the vehicle) is operational if the door is 'isolated'. I would assume, for safety, though that it would still open the doors if used].
== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
GWR did have an issue some time ago with detaching diagrams basically being removed from the timetable during Covid, so it may have been lost driver competency at the time to find someone who did it. As you say, probably some specific situation which meant that it couldn't be done.
Fair enough "locking up" is already pretty vague and whilst everyone on the ground and in control rooms will know what it means, I am sure there are slight quirks with each train and each operator!
Isolating and locking out is a physical intervention to prevent the use of the door by the train crew.
Securing is the physical intervention to prevent the doors from being used again till the train crew wish the to be used (fundamentally from the outside) as we shouldn't be securing doors with people on board as rhey cannot re-open the doors until fhw driver wants. They would need to use the emergency egress equipment in order to exit the train.
Yep, that seems like a reasonable way of putting it. Doors can also be "temporarily secured" if units are being attached / detached with people on board or if there's a need to do so for rectification of some technical faults.
Fair enough "locking up" is already pretty vague and whilst everyone on the ground and in control rooms will know what it means, I am sure there are slight quirks with each train and each operator!
'Keying Out' was also another term associated with the process of sending an ex-passenger train ECS to shunt between platforms (back in the day).
I think though that we are in general accordance though.
I do appreciate your point though and being "pretty vague" and agree. There is far too much variance in what the industry says and does that is remarkably similar or identical between TOCs / regions.
[Bring on communism style communications and practices which *would* simply things in this industry]. (And in another dream I had...)
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