I was talking to a colleague the other day about SOL incidents and it came up in conversation how long does a SPAD or any safety of the line incident get taken into account when moving to a new TOC ? He said they like to seen a couple of years between you and any SOL incident , can anyone confirm this ? I know they stay on your record just wanted to know how they are viewed in terms of time scale.
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
How long does a SPAD stay on your record ?
- Thread starter BTU
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
It depends entirely if they have a Cat A or B SPAD or a non technical SPAD! More serious occurrences can be used against you if you do a repeat offence later on. If you do not report a SPAD however, it can be instant dismissal!
Sometimes you just need one.
A driver was prosecuted last December after he disabled the TPWS and his steam loco and 13 carriages ended up blocking a junction at Wootton Bassett just one minute after a HS train had passed.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/west-coast-railway-and-driver-to-be-prosecuted-over-spad
He was sacked in January.
Sometimes you just need one.
A driver was prosecuted last December after he disabled the TPWS and his steam loco and 13 carriages ended up blocking a junction at Wootton Bassett just one minute after a HS train had passed.
http://www.railtechnologymagazine.com/Rail-News/west-coast-railway-and-driver-to-be-prosecuted-over-spad
He was sacked in January.
Last edited:
I stand corrected. Have had a little read on the rssb website and it seems things are recorded indefinitely.
I'm very certain we were told otherwise at southern!!! Maybe a case of they show forever but you don't necessarily declare them after a period of time.
I'd like to know myself now as I've got to send of my ATOC B1
I'm very certain we were told otherwise at southern!!! Maybe a case of they show forever but you don't necessarily declare them after a period of time.
I'd like to know myself now as I've got to send of my ATOC B1
Last edited:
By definition a SPAD is a safety related issue and therefore is not expunged but they can expire in terms of it being an offence if you collect too many points against you in any period of time.
Having said that; how long is this period of time? It is not really something that can be defined and depends entirely upon the factors involved.
As an example; one chap ended up having one SPAD every winter and after looking into the issues it was found it was down to Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) and with some mental health care and a SAD lamp he is back in work with not one SPAD in two years!
The factors are the things to consider if previous SPADs are to be used, or considered to be used, against you.
This is an interesting study in assessing a new approach to investigating SPADs. http://www.humanreliability.com/articles/Getting%20at%20the%20underlying%20causes%20of%20SPADs.pdf
In old terms, why would either a CAT B or CAT C be on the drivers record anyway??
I realise they stay on your record but what I mean is when you apply for a new job some companies like to see a clean driving record for a period of time, how long is that period of time? They can't hold it against you forever there must come a point like a car licence when they acknowledge it happened but enough time has elapsed that it doesn't count to much against you.
SkinnyDave
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Mar 2012
- Messages
- 1,242
How long is a bit of string?
Could depend on individual TOC and the nature of the incident
That's what I'm trying to ascertain, how long is that bit of string? Does anyone know? Or have any knowledge on said string.
If there has been a SPAD then it stays as a reference point, purely because safety is paramount and it is recorded as a safety-related incident
Technical, Signaller SPAR's (old Cat B, C and D's etc) are not a SPAD as such so are only on your record as a note and will be read as such by any TOC.
What I've been told this afternoon is that a SPAD does not expire but are read with context and time frames applied. If it was ten years ago it isn't as vital to a job application as one last month, but is still appropriate for the new TOC to know.
Last edited:
Any safety event (stop short, excess speed, Cat A SPAD) are recorded in someones safety file forever, and in most TOC cases - on an electronic file system called CMS.
The B1 form (old ATOC form as ATOC no longer exists) species you must detail every safety event regardless of time passed. Below is a copy and paste from the current form:
5.1.1 Have you previously been involved in any SPAD incidents (including incidents where you were subsequently exonerated)?
5.2.1 Have you previously been involved in any of the following (including incidents where you were subsequently exonerated): excess speed (including TPWS interventions), TPWS activations, station overruns, failure to call, stop short and release of doors, wrong side release, collisions, derailments or other safety incidents?
5.3.1 Have you ever been removed from train driving, or had restrictions placed on you, because of a safety of the line incident, your health or other cause?
So whilst you have to decalare everything, it is upto the potential employer to consider each incident on merit and decide whether it would impact any application.
The B1 form (old ATOC form as ATOC no longer exists) species you must detail every safety event regardless of time passed. Below is a copy and paste from the current form:
5.1.1 Have you previously been involved in any SPAD incidents (including incidents where you were subsequently exonerated)?
5.2.1 Have you previously been involved in any of the following (including incidents where you were subsequently exonerated): excess speed (including TPWS interventions), TPWS activations, station overruns, failure to call, stop short and release of doors, wrong side release, collisions, derailments or other safety incidents?
5.3.1 Have you ever been removed from train driving, or had restrictions placed on you, because of a safety of the line incident, your health or other cause?
So whilst you have to decalare everything, it is upto the potential employer to consider each incident on merit and decide whether it would impact any application.
Last edited:
I spoke to a XC manager a while back, when they sift through applications, any of them with SOL incidents are binned, they don't look at any detail or when they occurred.
SpacePhoenix
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 5,491
What's SOL short for?
Do things like SPADs get recorded on an industry database that all TOCs and FOCs can access?
Johncleesefan
Member
- Joined
- 4 Sep 2013
- Messages
- 729
SOL - safety of the line
Wow that's a bit harsh talk about not being able to drop a ball ever in your life, did this bloke think the world is perfect? , what happened to learning from your mistakes ? I know excellent train drivers some CDM's and DI's all top blokes and they have had SPAD's, it doesn't make you a bad driver to have made a mistake it just makes you human especially give the amount of years a person has been driving and where they've driven. Imagine if no one was given a chance in life how little that would say for human compassion, I think this manager is doing his company a great deal of harm treating people in this way. Can any of us say hand on hart we have never made a mistake? I don't think so.
SpacePhoenix
Established Member
- Joined
- 18 Mar 2014
- Messages
- 5,491
Where a SPAD is caused by an external factor like a signal being replaced to red in front of them and the train hasn't got a hope in hell of stopping in time, does that go on a driver's record?
SkinnyDave
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Mar 2012
- Messages
- 1,242
Yes but would show driver was fully exonerated,
Nearly Happened to me other night but stopped in time
Last edited:
That would, hopefully, be a Signaller SPAR rather than a SPAD.
Dieseldriver
Member
- Joined
- 9 Apr 2012
- Messages
- 1,020
Doesn't mean it's down to the Signaller. I've had 2 technical SPADs (both at relatively high speed). One was down to a track circuit failure which replaced my signal back to danger as I was approaching at linespeed. The other was because the Signaller replaced it to danger due to an emergency ahead (rightly so and fully within the rules)
Getting back to the subject, and for those that understand what a SPAD is, it will follow you about for your whole career, and will make moving company rather challenging. Frankly, it will preclude you from consideration for most vacancies.
If you have a serious operating incident on your record, but wish to progress your career, I would suggest exploring the management option.
If you have a serious operating incident on your record, but wish to progress your career, I would suggest exploring the management option.
Pepperami
Member
Yeah its permanently on your record, as said its up to the potential employer to see if that matters to them in relation to how long ago it was and any other incidents
As someone who sifts and interviews potential drivers, I can wholeheartedly assure you that a SOL will not necessarily bar you from interview (guess you can tell I'm not cross country given a previous comment).
Do expect it to be discussed at interview though. Me and my colleagues are more interested in how you dealt with, overcame and ultimately try to prevent similar occurances going forward. Attitude is key!
Do expect it to be discussed at interview though. Me and my colleagues are more interested in how you dealt with, overcame and ultimately try to prevent similar occurances going forward. Attitude is key!
Last edited:
I've lost count of the number of signals I've gone through like that. Not seen a single one on my record.
If that were me I would definitely be taken the fatality part further!
- Status