How long can you break a journey?

[dyss]

I am moving to Bristol and will be travelling to Hastings fairly often via London. Ideally I would like to stop off in London to see friends for a day or two on the outward and/or return journey.

From some research into the train fares it seems consistently cheaper to get a return ticket all the way from Bristol to Hastings than two separate return tickets for the Bristol>London / London>Hastings portions of the journey.

With a ticket for the whole journey, how long can I break the journey before the ticket becomes invalid? As far as I can tell this relates only to Off-Peak tickets as the rules are clear on Advance and Anytime tickets.

Many thanks!

 

[najaB]

With a ticket for the whole journey, how long can I break the journey before the ticket becomes invalid?

The answer's actually in the question - you can break your journey until the ticket becomes invalid. That is to say that the only requirement is that you complete the journey by the 'Valid until' date (though overnight BOJ on last day of validity rules apply).

 

[yorkie]

It's better to break the return portion if possible, then you get up to a calendar month!

 

[bb21]

The answer's actually in the question - you can break your journey until the ticket becomes invalid. That is to say that the only requirement is that you complete the journey by the 'Valid until' date (though overnight BOJ on last day of validity rules apply).

You are no longer permitted to break your journey overnight on the last day of the return portion. All travel must be completed by 0429 the morning after the last day of validity.

 

[IanD]

You can't break your journey at all on an Advance ticket

 

[yorkie]

You can't break your journey at all on an Advance ticket

Agreed.

To add to what dyss said earlier...

....the rules are clear on Advance and Anytime tickets.....

.. it's clear you can not break your journey on an Advance and you can on an Anytime.

For the benefit of anyone who isn't sure, breaking your journey doesn't mean changing trains; it means exiting a station except under certain circumstances (see Break of journey for details).

The rules for the outward portion of Off Peak tickets are unclear as we need to know the origin and destination to be certain, but you generally can break your journey, and for any restriction to apply you must be told about it when you buy the ticket.

 

[miami]

Agreed.

To add to what dyss said earlier..... it's clear you can not break your journey on an Advance and you can on an Anytime.

For the benefit of anyone who isn't sure, breaking your journey doesn't mean changing trains; it means exiting a station except under certain circumstances (see Break of journey for details).

The rules for the outward portion of Off Peak tickets are unclear as we need to know the origin and destination to be certain, but you generally can break your journey, and for any restriction to apply you must be told about it when you buy the ticket.

How clear does that "told about it" have to be?

If I look at "thetrainline", a site that sadly people use

Journey £91.50
1 adult, 0 children
OUT 07:38 (Fri 22 Jan)

Lancaster to London Euston
Direct
RETURN

Any valid train. Please check the ticket terms for validity

A "More details" link states

£91.50

1 Adult(s) Full Fare (£91.50 each)
Travel is allowed via any permitted route.
Flexible ticket only valid at specific off-peak times of the day.

90%+ of the page is aimed at upselling things like "insurance", "travel cards" and "buses". I see there's now a £1.50 booking charge on the trainline too!!

Just before putting in your payment details there is a link to the "National Rail Conditions of Carriage" (something that many Virgin Train Manages don't know about - I had one this week who was quite surprised and tried to foister a passenger charter on me.). At no point do I see any reference to conditions, but then it doesn't define "specific off-peak times of the day" either.

Other ticketing sites have hidden links to the specific ticket condidtions, but they wouldn't be obvious to the layman, or even someone on the lookout.

Now I know what I'm looking for, and know the restrictions on LAN-EUS Off peak return are listed as restriction 3A, which states

"No break of journey allowed on outward travel, except to change trains."

I also know they are valid for trains arriving at Euston after 10.05, unless that train is also booked to stop at Watford before 10.20, but only thanks to brfares.com. Most of the time it just says "off peak", with no indication of what that means.

However I don't see anywhere where I'm told this when booking via thetrainline, and when buying at the station it's certainly not explicit (I bought a walk up fare with restriction 8A at a ticket office and was not told of the "Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities." clause)

However I also know that at least some train managers are aware you can't BOJ on a Shotton->London ticket, because of restriction VK stating "Break of Journey is not valid on Outward Travel". If one were to argue that they bought it from a website that didn't inform them of this fact, that's not going to be a fun appeal. Even when you're bang to rights it's not a fun appeal.

 

[dyss]

Thanks for all those replies. I have done a bit more digging in the ticket buying process and seen this in Ticket Type T&Cs. Can anyone decipher this for me?? It seems to contradict itself... (bearing in mind this route goes through London so you technically have to break the journey anyway to get onto the underground. I just want to break it for longer than just to get from one national rail station to another!) Also what does the "Not applicable" mean at the end? That you can or can't break the return journey?

Under "Conditions":
If the route shown on the ticket has a + or † symbol then the ticket includes the cost of travelling between certain London Stations (e.g. between Liverpool Street and Paddington) by either London Underground, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) or Thameslink services as appropriate to the route of the journey being made. Tickets will only be accepted by London Underground and DLR up to the last day of validity of the ticket and until 04:29 the following day. Other than to change trains, a break of journey at intermediate London Underground or DLR stations is not permitted.

Then a bit further on under "Break of Journey"
Outward:
A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.

Overnight break of journey - if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions applyas from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriaterestrictionsfor the actual day on which travel isbeing undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Fridayrestrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day.

Return:
Not applicable.

MANY THANKS!

 

[najaB]

Thanks for all those replies. I have done a bit more digging in the ticket buying process and seen this in Ticket Type T&Cs. Can anyone decipher this for me?? It seems to contradict itself...

Can you explain what you're seeing as contradictory?

Also what does the "Not applicable" mean at the end? That you can or can't break the return journey?

It means that there are no specific BOJ restrictions on the return half of the journey.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I just want to break it for longer than just to get from one national rail station to another!

I think what they are saying is that you cannot use the National Rail Ticket as a Zone 1 Travelcard. Unless on the connections part of an Advance ticket and probably not even then, you could arrive Liverpool Street in the morning and leave Paddington in the afternoon, but any travel within London is at your own expense. You can travel from Liverpool Street to Paddington via Oxford Circus, but not leave the Underground at Oxford Circus to spend the day shopping.

 

[IanD]

I think what they are saying is that you cannot use the National Rail Ticket as a Zone 1 Travelcard. Unless on the connections part of an Advance ticket and probably not even then, you could arrive Liverpool Street in the morning and leave Paddington in the afternoon, but any travel within London is at your own expense. You can travel from Liverpool Street to Paddington via Oxford Circus, but not leave the Underground at Oxford Circus to spend the day shopping.

You can leave at Oxford Circus to do your shopping but you would then not be able to resume your journey at Oxford Circus. You would have to resume your journey at Paddington, making your own way there at your own expense (if not walking) from Oxford Circus.

 

[yorkie]

(bearing in mind this route goes through London so you technically have to break the journey anyway to get onto the underground.

That's not actually a Break of journey.

I just want to break it for longer than just to get from one national rail station to another!)

You can take longer to get from one station to another.

But if you are asking about doing something else in London, if break of journey is permitted, there is no issue, and if it isn't permitted then it becomes a can of worms and different people will have different opinions (to avoid repetition, we have dozens of threads on this, one that springs to mind is Death's thread about attending a "gathering" while crossing London.)

You are only allowed one "cross-London transfer", so - whether or not the ticket allows break of journey- once you've exited London Underground you cannot re-enter using the same ticket.

Under "Conditions":
If the route shown on the ticket has a + or † symbol then the ticket includes the cost of travelling between certain London Stations (e.g. between Liverpool Street and Paddington) by either London Underground, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) or Thameslink services as appropriate to the route of the journey being made. Tickets will only be accepted by London Underground and DLR up to the last day of validity of the ticket and until 04:29 the following day. Other than to change trains, a break of journey at intermediate London Underground or DLR stations is not permitted.

The policy of LU is to allow exit at intermediate stations, but re-entry (anywhere) will not be permitted. So, you can finish your LU cross-London transfer short but you cannot resume the cross-London transfer; you'd have to walk/cycle or catch a bus or pay again to get to the London terminal.

Then a bit further on under "Break of Journey"

Outward:
A break of journey is permitted unless otherwise indicated by a restriction shown against the ticket's Restriction Code.

Overnight break of journey - if the journey cannot be completed in this time, the ticket may be used to continue the journey on the following day. Unless otherwise indicated in the relevant restriction code, time restrictions applyas from the initial origin station on both days. The appropriaterestrictionsfor the actual day on which travel isbeing undertaken apply (for example, it may be that if day 1 is on Sunday, no restrictions apply, but on day 2, the Monday-Fridayrestrictions apply). All travel must be completed by 04:29 in the morning after this second day.

Return:
Not applicable.

MANY THANKS!

The return portion of an Off Peak Return (SVR) is valid for one month and there is never a break of journey restriction (other than the fact you only get one cross-London transfer and cannot enter LU at an intermediate station that isn't on the cross-London transfer list, but that's a different concept) so there is no issue with the return portion.

 

[SickyNicky]

It's worth noting that not all guards are aware of the validity of overnight (or longer) breaks of journey. They will often mark your ticket with a date, intending to show that the ticket's validity has ended on that date.

This is, of course, nonsense. A guard marking a ticket with a date doesn't change the ticket's validity, it just means it was used for a section of the journey on that date.

I queried this with a Northern guard in the summer (those who were on the Cumbrian coast train may remember), who was adament that the return portion of my Off-Peak 1R didn't allow an overnight stop. As it happened, I was going home the same day, so no issue, but I sent a "comment" to Northern about it anyway, pointing out that it was at odds with their web site (although I was comparing their Anytime Return text, so not strictly the same).

Anyway, I got a nice letter in reply acknowledging that I could stop overnight if I wished, and one of their one-day rovers, which led to a good day out in the Autumn.