How long a delay before one can use a different TOC?

[TheManOnThe172]

I am looking to book an early-morning one-way ticket Derby-London for Wed 15 July.

Cheapest, by far, is via Tamworth, on Advance tickets with XC and LNW. The itinerary gives a 6 minute change onto the 0636 LNW to Euston.

But if that connection is missed, the next LNW train appears to be 1h20m later at 0756. (Have I got this right? In peak hours?)

Is there any entitlement to travel on 0648 or 0718 Avanti West Coast trains if the 0636 LNW is missed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the delay is over an hour the PRO gives you a right to be rerouted under comparable transport conditions. HOWEVER this does not allow you to just board the Avanti service, you would have to ask WMT XC to reroute you onto Avanti. Unfortunately the PRO isn't followed routinely by UK TOCs which means in practice in most cases the only way to get this right is to buy a ticket and sue the original TOC in the Small Claims Court, having asked and been refused in writing (e.g. on X). Most people will find this more hassle than waiting an hour.

If stranded overnight, Avanti do gain a responsibility to help you under the NRCoT, however.

Personally I'd not book that itinerary, it would just be stressful unless you were not bothered by being delayed and fancied a free trip as a priority.

 

[Starmill]

If the connection is missed, but the London train was on time, it'd be CrossCountry who would be rerouting you. Realistically they are likely to refuse their assistance point blank in this scenario. As mentioned above, you should be prepared to litigate against them if you want to do this, over potentially a significant sum of money.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the connection is missed, but the London train was on time, it'd be CrossCountry who would be rerouting you. Realistically they are likely to refuse their assistance point blank in this scenario. As mentioned above, you should be prepared to litigate against them if you want to do this, over potentially a significant sum of money.

Or be willing to be delayed and enjoy a free trip (from the very likely Delay Repay) with a bit of a bimble into town for coffee.

If I wanted to be on time I'd not risk that itinerary though.

 

[SuspectUsual]

it'd be CrossCountry who would be rerouting you. Realistically they are likely to refuse their assistance point blank in this scenario

I think it’s more likely that in the timescales the OP would be operating within, they’d not get any response at all from XC. Either way the outcome is the same

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it’s more likely that in the timescales the OP would be operating within, they’d not get any response at all from XC. Either way the outcome is the same

You'd probably get a fairly quick reply on X, but it would odds-on be "no" even though the PRO does entitle it.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Thanks for the prompt and very helpful advice.

If I buy the cheap split (Advance Singles Derby-Tamworth, Tamworth- Milton Keynes Central, Anytime Day Single Milton Keynes Central-Euston), and then miss the connection at Tamworth by a few minutes, I can buy a not-too-expensive flexible split Tamworth-Euston while waiting for the AWC train at 0648.

Am I right that in this event, given the 1h20m prospective delay on my original tickets, I can abandon my journey on those tickets at Tamworth and then reclaim the value of the Tamworth-Milton Keynes Central and Milton Keynes Central - Euston tickets?

 

[AlterEgo]

Thanks for the prompt and very helpful advice.

If I buy the cheap split (Advance Singles Derby-Tamworth, Tamworth- Milton Keynes Central, Anytime Day Single Milton Keynes Central-Euston), and then miss the connection at Tamworth by a few minutes, I can buy a not-too-expensive flexible split Tamworth-Euston while waiting for the AWC train at 0648.

Am I right that in this event, given the 1h20m prospective delay on my original tickets, I can abandon my journey on those tickets at Tamworth and then reclaim the value of the Tamworth-Milton Keynes Central and Milton Keynes Central - Euston tickets?

Contentious - you do have to "return to your point of origin" as per the NRCoT! Which probably does not clear anything up at all.

 

[xotGD]

Is an Advance actually an operator specific ticket? Of course, it is train-specific, but if you miss that train due to a late inbound connection, are you 100% restricted to that train's operator's services?

 

[JamesT]

Is an Advance actually an operator specific ticket? Of course, it is train-specific, but if you miss that train due to a late inbound connection, are you 100% restricted to that train's operator's services?

Looking at the forum’s ticketing site at the cheap single for the 0636 comes up with the following:

Advance Single
Non-refundable ticket, only valid on the selected train.
Only valid on booked London Northwestern Railway/West Midlands Railway services and required connecting London Northwestern Railway/West Midlands Railway services.

 

[Watershed]

Contentious - you do have to "return to your point of origin" as per the NRCoT! Which probably does not clear anything up at all.

The PRO is actually more generous in this situation (where there's an anticipated 61+ minute delay) and therefore the NRCoT shouldn't purport to universally require returning to your origin.

Article 16(a) entitles affected passengers to choose:

reimbursement of the full cost of the ticket, under the conditions by which it was paid, for the part or parts of his or her journey not made and for the part or parts already made if the journey is no longer serving any purpose in relation to the passenger’s original travel plan, together with, when relevant, a return service to the first point of departure at the earliest opportunity

So the OP would be entitled to at least a partial refund on their ticket, commensurate with the unused Tamworth-Euston part, even if they decide to continue to Euston with a separate Avanti ticket. That would be an alternative to choosing re-routing, which would require XC to reimburse the cost of those Avanti tickets.

If a through ticket is held, there is no clear mechanism for calculating how "for the part of his journey not made" should be calculated. In this situation split tickets make that calculation rather easier.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is an Advance actually an operator specific ticket? Of course, it is train-specific, but if you miss that train due to a late inbound connection, are you 100% restricted to that train's operator's services?

Technically depends on the route on the ticket, though "AP <TOC>" is the most common routeing for Advances and that does restrict you to a TOC. The super cheap WMT ones appear to be "AP LNR&WMR ONLY".

If they were geographic e.g. "AP HIGH WYCOMBE" then no, and for &CONNECTIONS ones it's a bit debatable depending on exactly what you did.

The exception to this is that DfT Operator TOCs* accept each others' tickets in the event of a cancellation, though a surprising number of the staff appear not to know nor understand that!

* Though I have not seen anything adding the more recent ones to the original list, which was Northern, TPE, LNER and Southeastern. Doesn't mean to say the other ones weren't added but I've not seen anything saying so - others may have!

 

[D1537]

I'm actually quite surprised that Tamworth HL/LL transfer time is only 5 minutes, especially considering those with mobility issues.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

I'm actually quite surprised that Tamworth HL/LL transfer time is only 5 minutes, especially considering those with mobility issues.

It's one lift, which will likely be easier than stations where you have to take two lifts!