How is an HST turned round?

[Granticus]

First post here, y'oll seem nice =]

Umm, forgive me for asking a stupid question. But how exactly are HST's turned around if the need arises? Are turntables still used? Or is a big loop used?

Thanks

 

[142094]

I can't think of many times a HST needs to be turned around, apart from if 1st class is facing the wrong way or a problem with a power car. For example I was on a HST which was going from Kings Cross to Edinburgh, but 1st class was at the Edinburgh end. So at Newcastle, instead of going into the station over the King Edward Bridge, we went over the High Level and then the train 'reversed', so 1st class was now at the right end.

If a power car needs to be turned, some depots I think still have turntables, but I don't knwo which ones.

 

[Granticus]

Ahh. Thankyou =]

 

[142094]

No problem, and welcome to the forums as well.

 

[royaloak]

If the whole set needs turning after engineering diversions then it can be sent around a triangle, at Plymouth they can enter Laira off the mainlines or go around the Lipson triangle to the wash, power-cars can go out via lipson into Plymouth then back in via the mainline obviously coupled to another PC or 08, at Newcastle they can enter or leave using the different bridges. other depots have different ways of doing it. SWT send 444s out on a hounslow rounder to turn them.

 

[Turbostar]

Down here in Plymouth, we have Laira depot. HST sets are theorectically turned when they enter the depot after terminating at Plymouth. This is done via the Lipson Triangle. Coming out of Plymouth, London bound, they come off the main line at Lipson Junction, round the cord into the cleaning sidings, then reverse (or go forward, whatever way you see it) into Laira depot, thus turning the set. I might add, not all sets go into the depot via Lipson Triangle, but most do. Also, not all terminating trains at Plymouth head off to Laira depot, mostly services terminating early evening onwards.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

You can use a triangle where the train does the railway equivalent of a three point turn.
One is currently being built at the WSR, where it will be used occasionally by HSTs.

As to why, I have been told that if the train should suffer a cracked windscreen, it has to travel at no more that 25mph. For an FGW HST for instance it could be turned at the WSR, so that it can travel at 125mph, rather than crawling to Penzance.

 

[royaloak]

Depends on the size of the crack? yes really

 

[tbtc]

I've had a similar experience at Newcastle - the windscreen wiper wasn't working on the front power car, so they swapped it round there. Only hassle is that they'd have had to find somewhere to turn it the next day (once fixed) to put First Class back at the "London" end

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There are very few reasons why an HST set COULD become "the wrong way round" in the first place, which is probs because there are so few places on the lines they serve that include loops that would be used, even in times of diversions.
As 142094 said, Newcastle has one such loop, Edinburgh has another. On the Great Western, theres a loop round Greenford and there's the triangle at Reading and Plymouth. There's also the triangle at Gloucester, though these days, its its less likely to find an HST there in the first place!

Perhaps you're thinking the power cars. If one of them has to be swapped, then its likely that one or other would be facing the opposite way - but as this isn't a whole train set, there are a few more places where a single power car can be taken, to then reverse out into an opposite-facing direction.

 

[dk1]

Most depots for HSTs or even locos for that matter are never usually far away from some form of triangle.

 

[Tomnick]

Taking a wider view though, it's entirely possible that, for example, an East Coast HST could end up "the wrong way round" (or at least "the other way round"!) by working from Leeds to KX via Hambleton and returning via Wakefield. Even more likely - though EMT don't seem too concerned about First Class being at the London end* - is the possibility for an EMT HST to work south from, and return to, Sheffield via either Derby or Nottingham, with a reversal en-route in the latter case.

* - probably because the extra distance from the country end of a train in the new 'Midland' platforms at St. Pancras to the buffer stops is small compared to the distance from there to anywhere else useful!

I'd have thought that taking a single power car anywhere outside the depot for turning would be a nightmare, as it's going to have to be driven from the "wrong" end at some point.

 

[Turbostar]

AFAIK, if Laira need to turn a power car, they bung one of the resident shunters on the back of the power car, & take it around the depot that way, though I stand to be corrected, but I have seen this done on occasions I have passed the depot.

 

[dk1]

Taking a wider view though, it's entirely possible that, for example, an East Coast HST could end up "the wrong way round" (or at least "the other way round"!) by working from Leeds to KX via Hambleton and returning via Wakefield. Even more likely - though EMT don't seem too concerned about First Class being at the London end* - is the possibility for an EMT HST to work south from, and return to, Sheffield via either Derby or Nottingham, with a reversal en-route in the latter case.

* - probably because the extra distance from the country end of a train in the new 'Midland' platforms at St. Pancras to the buffer stops is small compared to the distance from there to anywhere else useful!

I'd have thought that taking a single power car anywhere outside the depot for turning would be a nightmare, as it's going to have to be driven from the "wrong" end at some point.

EMT can simply put it on a Sheffield & send via Beighton & its right turned for the UP trip. As for power cars then they just stick a shunter in the vestibule end & do it via radios. Happens all the time with dodgy loco cabs or 156/170 driving cab ends at Crown Point by going Depot-Trowse-Station-Depot or vice-versa.

 

[TTI]

Quite a few years ago (when HSTs were on the Euston-Holyhead WC services), there was a "riot" at Holyhead with the set to form the 0304? Holyhead-Euston and they needed to 'turn' the power cars.
So they unhooked one power car and ran it to Valley to 'turn' it on the triangle. Having completed that first move, (with much delay), the driver or shunter's hours were "up" and they couldn't do the other power car. Result? Two Power cars pointing towards Ireland and train caped! :roll:

 

[kestrel]

OOC send them round the greenford loop if 'wrong way' round, nearly every day i see one going round there ;o)

 

[ChrisCooper]

EMTs HSTs get turned a lot since they regularly use all 3 sides of the Trent Triangle, so it's not at all uncommon to see trains with the first class at the north end. When coming up from London at weekends I love getting a reversed one as I walk down to the front first class coach and 9 times out of 10 get it to myself. If we're talking push-pull sets as well as HSTs, West Coast can turn at Birmingham (loop) and Carstairs (triangle). East Coast as has been said can turn at Newcastle, and I've not only seen HSTs turned but also a 91 running blunt end first at the north end (caused me to be about an hour late getting to Newcastle a few years back, although I was already a bit late thanks to Central trains and having missed my connection at Peterborough). They could of cource also turn at Carstairs. GEML can turn using the Wensum Curve through Crown Point Depot, although I've never seen a set running anything but loco at the London end, DVT or DBSO at the Norwich end. The locos themselves do get turned though, remember a while back a Norwich to London train was delayed as the 90 had been turned and the windscreen was filthy, and despite the best efforts of the cleaner and the driver (including trying a newspaper on it) they couldn't get it clean enough to go, so eventually just took the set that had just arrived from London. They can also turn on the triangle at Manningtree.

 

[mumrar]

When XC run extra HSTs in summer, they sometimes need turning at Laira, because if they're on a Newquay the TGS needs to be down the buffers end for all of the luggage.

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

You can use a triangle where the train does the railway equivalent of a three point turn.
One is currently being built at the WSR, where it will be used occasionally by HSTs.

As to why, I have been told that if the train should suffer a cracked windscreen, it has to travel at no more that 25mph. For an FGW HST for instance it could be turned at the WSR, so that it can travel at 125mph, rather than crawling to Penzance.

I'd love you to find a section of line beyond Cowley Bridge that's beyond 100, there's a short section of 100mph between Exeter St Thomas to near Starcross after that it's top whack is about 85 IIRC.

I'm sure that the residents of Somerset, D&C would love to have 125mph running, I believe there's only 3 or 4 trains a day that take advantage of 100mph running non-stop through Taunton.

 

[Jordy]

Does Neville Hill still have/use its turntable for turning powercars?

 

[truckman060473]

Most depots for HSTs or even locos for that matter are never usually far away from some form of triangle.

Indeed, and Landore depot, Swansea, sits right inside such a triangle!

 

[dk1]

GEML can turn using the Wensum Curve through Crown Point Depot, although I've never seen a set running anything but loco at the London end, DVT or DBSO at the Norwich end. The locos themselves do get turned though, remember a while back a Norwich to London train was delayed as the 90 had been turned and the windscreen was filthy, and despite the best efforts of the cleaner and the driver (including trying a newspaper on it) they couldn't get it clean enough to go, so eventually just took the set that had just arrived from London. They can also turn on the triangle at Manningtree.

Before 2004 when Anglia operated the boat train with hauled sets we often had an upside down set with 1st class at the Norwich end. Would be in traffic all day for fear that the trip round the curve could not be done in 35mins & would delay the return working to the capital.

As for Manningtree i have had two memorable turning occasions. Once on the 20.30 Lst-Nrw when the points failed at Manningtree & only option was to take the train to Mistley & return via the North curve with a 25' delay. Another was the night before the non-event that was the launch of the dreadfully named & liveried 'one' when we went light to Ilford with 2x86s, to top & tail the DBSO & turn it incase the DVT wasnt ready. We then took the locos back to Crown Point for the next days service.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

There's an excellent triangle in Wakefield. Its quite small and has a small estate of business units in the middle of it. It quite odd to be in that estate with trains rolling past on all 3 sides.

 

[Oracle]

In 1976 I was on an HST out of Bristol Temple Meads that reversed and turned via Dr Days Junction triangle. A train could of course be turned going from Parkway towards Bath avoiding TM in theory!

On the Underground, using a circuit of the Circle Line or turning via reversals at High Street Kensington and Gloucester Road have been known...Northern Line trains become turned using the Kings X and Euston Loops onto the Piccadilly Line for example.

 

[O L Leigh]

There are a few options to turn trains on the WA lines too. First off there is the triangle formed by Stansted North, South and East Junctions. These, together with the freight avoiding loop at Ely, have been used to turn steam locos on special services in the past. Another option is the use of Channelsea Junction and the High Meads loop to turn trains at Stratford. I've managed to go from Stansted Airport to Stratford and back again without changing ends using that particular route before now.

O L Leigh

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'd love you to find a section of line beyond Cowley Bridge that's beyond 100, there's a short section of 100mph between Exeter St Thomas to near Starcross after that it's top whack is about 85 IIRC.

I'm sure that the residents of Somerset, D&C would love to have 125mph running, I believe there's only 3 or 4 trains a day that take advantage of 100mph running non-stop through Taunton.

It's all better than 25mph.