How "Good" is BUS USERS UK ??

[DD12]

Hi all !
I've been having a variety of problems over many years with the services provided by my local operator, and with them failing to comply even with their statutory and basic obligations.

I'm very "broad-shouldered" and patient, but unfortunately they show no sign of improving, or of addressing my various (VALID) complaints - despite some "hopeful" sounding responses from them.

I live in a city where there have been very many complaints featured in the local newspaper over recent years, and the operator has a "well-earned" bad reputation, and yet the operator shows no sign of making the significant changes that are needed ( - the realistically achievable ones, that is).

Does anyone know if BUS USERS UK is able to bring about a GENUINE change, where for instance, a "big" operator, will bring the quality of their ACTUAL local services up to the basic level, and it treats it's passengers (customers) with respect, and, if necessary, it changes HARMFUL policies that are perhaps being dictated by "Head Office" ("for commercial and financial reasons, perhaps) ??

(And I mean a long-term improvement in attitude etc, - not a short-lived "sweetener")

Have any bus passenger groups tried to take legal action against bus operators (or their owners) that persistently put their customers in stressful or harmful circumstances WITHOUT GOOD REASON ??

(I'm painfully aware of the very many, worsening, unfair, - even overwhelming difficulties, that bus OPERATORS are facing).

Should I, and other people/ passenger groups, "not waste our time" by approaching BUS USERS UK ?? and instead try other multiple approaches to getting genuine improvements ??

A record of, a persistent lack of service reliability could be presented to the relevant Traffic Commissioner, -- but would that government department be willing and able to take effective action(s) ?? ( - I have read online comments that say "NOT" - - but I don't know).

Shouldn't all bus services have a PROPER regulator / "watchdog with teeth" with a remit to help and protect decent people who WANT to use their local bus? -- and those who have no choice !!

Good quality bus services should be a part of the SOLUTION for the problems of congestion and air quality (which are not just confined to the big cities).

Can anyone advise please ? -- "H-e-l-p -- h--E--l--P---- H---E---L---P--- !!"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are any of the services involved tendered? If so you might be able to convince the Council to withhold funding until they buck their ideas up.

Beyond that there's very little regulation; the Traffic Commissioners are only really interested in safety type matters or very serious misconduct in terms of not running the registered service. And TBH I don't think Bus Users UK has any teeth at all.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Shouldn't all bus services have a PROPER regulator / "watchdog with teeth" with a remit to help and protect decent people who WANT to use their local bus?

Yes, they probably should.

But they don't.

Bus Users UK are a waste of time, to be honest. The local paper is the way to get some change.

Unless it's First (anywhere) or Stagecoach Newcastle, in which they couldn't give two hoots.

 

[PeterC]

I had never heard of Bus Users UK. Our local Transport User Group isn't affiliated and seem to get on perfectly well through direct contact with county council and operators. (A councillor from the ruling party on the committee helps)

 

[DD12]

Are any of the services involved tendered? If so you might be able to convince the Council to withhold funding until they buck their ideas up.

Beyond that there's very little regulation; the Traffic Commissioners are only really interested in safety type matters or very serious misconduct in terms of not running the registered service. And TBH I don't think Bus Users UK has any teeth at all.

Thanks Bletchleyite, none of the affected services were tendered, and some of my complaints were about timetable errors; difficulties encountered in TRYING to MAKE complaints, and non-sensical replies from them, and no remedial actions taken, when they are clearly needed;
Etc, Etc.

Some of what I have witnessed, HAS been clearly a matter for the TC, but I have wanted to "hold-back" from contacting them (up until now !)

 

[Dentonian]

Bus Users UK has very little profile in northern urban areas and don't really have much "clout", especially in the early stages of any dispute. Their main relevance in this context is the "Bus Appeals Board" but you would have to show you have exhausted all other practical avenues. I would be wary of approaching the local press. The media industry is there to sell papers/advertising and they don't care about their readers/viewers. Also, most are generally hostile toward non-motorists, so are quite happy to contribute to the downfall of the bus industry and then exploit the people affected. As for non-sensical answers; the bus industry is no different to anyone else in terms of complaint handling; they just churn out stock acknowledgements/replies which clearly show they haven't even read your complaint.

Perhaps you could give us more of any idea about your causes of complaint, without mentioning Operators or even where you live/are travelling, if you prefer.

 

[RT4038]

Hi all !
I've been having a variety of problems over many years with the services provided by my local operator, and with them failing to comply even with their statutory and basic obligations.

I'm very "broad-shouldered" and patient, but unfortunately they show no sign of improving, or of addressing my various (VALID) complaints - despite some "hopeful" sounding responses from them.

I live in a city where there have been very many complaints featured in the local newspaper over recent years, and the operator has a "well-earned" bad reputation, and yet the operator shows no sign of making the significant changes that are needed ( - the realistically achievable ones, that is).

Does anyone know if BUS USERS UK is able to bring about a GENUINE change, where for instance, a "big" operator, will bring the quality of their ACTUAL local services up to the basic level, and it treats it's passengers (customers) with respect, and, if necessary, it changes HARMFUL policies that are perhaps being dictated by "Head Office" ("for commercial and financial reasons, perhaps) ??

(And I mean a long-term improvement in attitude etc, - not a short-lived "sweetener")

Have any bus passenger groups tried to take legal action against bus operators (or their owners) that persistently put their customers in stressful or harmful circumstances WITHOUT GOOD REASON ??

(I'm painfully aware of the very many, worsening, unfair, - even overwhelming difficulties, that bus OPERATORS are facing).

Should I, and other people/ passenger groups, "not waste our time" by approaching BUS USERS UK ?? and instead try other multiple approaches to getting genuine improvements ??

A record of, a persistent lack of service reliability could be presented to the relevant Traffic Commissioner, -- but would that government department be willing and able to take effective action(s) ?? ( - I have read online comments that say "NOT" - - but I don't know).

Shouldn't all bus services have a PROPER regulator / "watchdog with teeth" with a remit to help and protect decent people who WANT to use their local bus? -- and those who have no choice !!

Good quality bus services should be a part of the SOLUTION for the problems of congestion and air quality (which are not just confined to the big cities).

Can anyone advise please ? -- "H-e-l-p -- h--E--l--P---- H---E---L---P--- !!"

Bus Users UK might be able to help with specific complaints, but only after you have raised them with the bus company first. They will certainly have no ability to 'change the world' in regards to bus company policies, unless they are totally unreasonable or illegal in some way or another. From the tone of your post it sounds like this is not actually the case, but more like a wish that your local bus company might adopt best practice from other parts of the industry.
A record of persistent lack of service reliability, of multiple journeys each day over several days, preferably from complaints of several different people, will result in the Traffic Commissioners investigating. If complaints come from Councillors, MPs and Local Authorities these carry more weight. You must get the widest possible data - bus companies are permitted a certain % failure rate, and will also be allowed leeway for one-off or emergency events (demonstrations, road works etc).
If your complaints are to do with timetables or fares then there is no regulator, and if bus companies feel that their current practice is in their commercial interest then that is what they will carry on doing. Of course, a competitor starting a rival service offering improvements may cause them to change but.........

 

[DD12]

I had never heard of Bus Users UK. Our local Transport User Group isn't affiliated and seem to get on perfectly well through direct contact with county council and operators. (A councillor from the ruling party on the committee helps)

Thanks Peter for that reply and "tip".
"Interesting".

 

[DD12]

Bus Users UK has very little profile in northern urban areas and don't really have much "clout", especially in the early stages of any dispute. Their main relevance in this context is the "Bus Appeals Board" but you would have to show you have exhausted all other practical avenues. I would be wary of approaching the local press. The media industry is there to sell papers/advertising and they don't care about their readers/viewers. Also, most are generally hostile toward non-motorists, so are quite happy to contribute to the downfall of the bus industry and then exploit the people affected. As for non-sensical answers; the bus industry is no different to anyone else in terms of complaint handling; they just churn out stock acknowledgements/replies which clearly show they haven't even read your complaint.

Perhaps you could give us more of any idea about your causes of complaint, without mentioning Operators or even where you live/are travelling, if you prefer.

Thanks Dentonian -- lots of good stuff in your reply.

- as well as any of the comments I have put above, the biggest problem locally, over many years has been, and continues to be, service reliability ---
buses turning-up very late or not at all ! ( - sounds all-too familiar now, doesn't it !).

I am NOT talking about failings caused by traffic problems, nor all the other genuine problems that an operator has to try and cope with, but I AM talking about the APPARENT (from my observations) -- persistent failure of the operator to put vehicles and drivers in the right places to provide a REASONABLY reliable service, and especially to work to a realistic achievable timetable !!

Where I live, the worst reliability has been (for many years) from c.16.20 onwards (In My Opinion AND experience as a user), and this has been happening on the "Flagship" services, as well as my local one.

I know that this late-afternoon peak period has the worst traffic jams, but I also think more actions to help reliability are achievable.

My suspicion is that the Head Office, in charge of my local bus co., is imposing a "strait-jacket" -- financially and commercially based PERFORMANCE disciplines etc. on their/ my local company (operator) that are too often unachievable, and that results in suffering for local passengers, AND results in a declining number of passengers (year after year) whilst the population of my city is growing (year after year) !!

I could well be wrong - in many of my comments and guesses, so please "take them with a pinch of salt" !!

P.S. - I have edited-out some of this post of mine, because the content appeared (upon re-reading) to be muddled, and needed a separate and expanded post "somewhere else" -- SORRY !

 

[Bantamzen]

@DD12 It may help the discussion along if you give us an idea of the area & operator involved, as it is difficult to offer advice and discussion without knowing the specific details.

 

[DD12]

@DD12 It may help the discussion along if you give us an idea of the area & operator involved, as it is difficult to offer advice and discussion without knowing the specific details.

Thanks Bantamzen for your reply.

- I would prefer not-to do that for the for the time being -- on this thread -- because as well as using the bus (and my car), I am also a "bus enthusiast", and know some of the hard-working people who work for the company -- all the drivers I've encountered have been excellent - for a very long time !!
but the failings and frustrations that have caused me to "boil-over" are not just affecting me, but lots of other local people too.
The local company is a small part of a big, well-known group which has been heavily criticised elsewhere on this forum,

but I wanted to try to confine this thread to "How good is BUS USERS UK ?" - and some alternatives, and focussed / limited "stuff".

Already, I've lot of very good helpful replies, above, for which I'm very grateful, so if this thread "stalls" for the reasons you have highlighted,
it will still have been helpful to me.

ASAP I must try to find out if there is a local bus passenger users group - - BUT, if there is one, and they have existed for a few years or more, then they have "failed" or have been unable to bring-about the changes needed.

 

[DD12]

Bus Users UK might be able to help with specific complaints, but only after you have raised them with the bus company first. They will certainly have no ability to 'change the world' in regards to bus company policies, unless they are totally unreasonable or illegal in some way or another. From the tone of your post it sounds like this is not actually the case, but more like a wish that your local bus company might adopt best practice from other parts of the industry.
A record of persistent lack of service reliability, of multiple journeys each day over several days, preferably from complaints of several different people, will result in the Traffic Commissioners investigating. If complaints come from Councillors, MPs and Local Authorities these carry more weight. You must get the widest possible data - bus companies are permitted a certain % failure rate, and will also be allowed leeway for one-off or emergency events (demonstrations, road works etc).
If your complaints are to do with timetables or fares then there is no regulator, and if bus companies feel that their current practice is in their commercial interest then that is what they will carry on doing. Of course, a competitor starting a rival service offering improvements may cause them to change but.........

Thanks very much RT4038 -- lots of good, helpful stuff in your reply -- lots of good posts from you in other threads, too !

As for the "wish list for best practice", I think that some of the posts below yours should help to clarify my position.
Yes, I want best practice, but first I think the company needs to step-up to the basic level when it comes to delivering it's advertised services.

I don't want to get dragged into too much detail here, but the realities here are killing my enthusiastic interest in buses (after very many years),
- - to the extent that I MIGHT have to "bite the bullet" and get involved with a passenger transport group, which is why I started this thread --
- How "Good" is BUS USERS UK ??

 

[Dentonian]

I am actually a member of BUUK and I've just realised I contacted them about a study carried out by Stagecoach (so hardly independent!) claiming "commuters" could be "up to" (always the get-out clause) £900 better off by using my local route (Reddish to Manchester) than driving. Forget the fact that they have reduced the peak service from 7.5 to less than 6bph; partly replaced 2yo MMCs with 9yo E400s and slashed the parallel services at the Stockport end - thus impacting punctuality - that would mean a motorist spending £1500 a year on fuel and (in some - not all cases) parking. The journey is roughly 8 miles return (about a litre of fuel for as careful driver in a small car. So how does £1.20 a day x (av) 240 working days a year come to £1495? Does car parking really cost £1200 a year. And that's before you take into account the time penalty. The bus journey averages 7 mph, whearas driving is probably twice as fast.
Significantly, I sent an e-mail to BUUK about this on 24 Feb, and got an auto response promising a quick reply. I'm still waiting ; sound familiar?

So TO THE POINT: BUUK is getting too close to the industry and away from its members, especially in areas without organised groups. Given subs are (from memory) over £20 a year, I would n't bother, and I'm sure they won't entertain your complaints without stumping up for membership.

As it is commercial services involved, your best bet would probably to have one final attempt at contacting the Operator, and aying that you will approach the Area Traffic Office/VOSA if you don't get a satisfactory answer. I must stress though, that you will need to give as much detail as possible about the delays/failures, with dates/times/locations and (if a bus finally turns up) fleet/regn number. At least as an enthusiast you are one step ahead with the latter detail, which is very important especially if the service is relatively frequent. eg. to identify whether the bus you caught was 18 minutes late or actually, the next registered journey 2 minutes early.

Just to remind you of the parameters; Notwithstanding unforeseeable circumstances (eg. unannounced roadworks, major police incidents), an operator should strive to run at least 95% of journeys within a window of 59 seconds early to 4 mins 59 seconds late, based on each registered timing point, and to run at least 98% of journeys somehow or other. Any half decent Operator (or in practice, well managed depot) will try to juggle things around to concentrate problems on the most frequent services, thus meaning failures of buses registered every 30 or 60 minutes are very rare indeed.

 

[DD12]

Thanks Dentonian, I've saved your post No.13 to favourites, for future reference !

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I am actually a member of BUUK and I've just realised I contacted them about a study carried out by Stagecoach (so hardly independent!) claiming "commuters" could be "up to" (always the get-out clause) £900 better off by using my local route (Reddish to Manchester) than driving. Forget the fact that they have reduced the peak service from 7.5 to less than 6bph; partly replaced 2yo MMCs with 9yo E400s and slashed the parallel services at the Stockport end - thus impacting punctuality - that would mean a motorist spending £1500 a year on fuel and (in some - not all cases) parking. The journey is roughly 8 miles return (about a litre of fuel for as careful driver in a small car. So how does £1.20 a day x (av) 240 working days a year come to £1495? Does car parking really cost £1200 a year. And that's before you take into account the time penalty. The bus journey averages 7 mph, whearas driving is probably twice as fast.
Significantly, I sent an e-mail to BUUK about this on 24 Feb, and got an auto response promising a quick reply. I'm still waiting ; sound familiar?

So TO THE POINT: BUUK is getting too close to the industry and away from its members, especially in areas without organised groups. Given subs are (from memory) over £20 a year, I would n't bother, and I'm sure they won't entertain your complaints without stumping up for membership.

As it is commercial services involved, your best bet would probably to have one final attempt at contacting the Operator, and aying that you will approach the Area Traffic Office/VOSA if you don't get a satisfactory answer. I must stress though, that you will need to give as much detail as possible about the delays/failures, with dates/times/locations and (if a bus finally turns up) fleet/regn number. At least as an enthusiast you are one step ahead with the latter detail, which is very important especially if the service is relatively frequent. eg. to identify whether the bus you caught was 18 minutes late or actually, the next registered journey 2 minutes early.

Just to remind you of the parameters; Notwithstanding unforeseeable circumstances (eg. unannounced roadworks, major police incidents), an operator should strive to run at least 95% of journeys within a window of 59 seconds early to 4 mins 59 seconds late, based on each registered timing point, and to run at least 98% of journeys somehow or other. Any half decent Operator (or in practice, well managed depot) will try to juggle things around to concentrate problems on the most frequent services, thus meaning failures of buses registered every 30 or 60 minutes are very rare indeed.

Your figures for motoring costs don’t include tax, insurance, maintenance or tyres?

Also, the get out clause (as you put it) is more for ASA compliance than anything more sinister.

 

[Mwanesh]

The best possible solution which may help here is to try to call the depot and speak to the one charge and possibly arrange a meeting.Most operators are willing to listen and if you put your points across without arguing you have a better chance of success.As an example you will find most blogs have companies they can talk to easily .

 

[Dentonian]

Your figures for motoring costs don’t include tax, insurance, maintenance or tyres?

Also, the get out clause (as you put it) is more for ASA compliance than anything more sinister.

You can only go off variable costs. If you incur fixed costs you would want to use your "asset" more...not less. The get out clause wasn't seen as sinister, just "best case scenario" from the promoter's point of view.

 

[158756]

I am actually a member of BUUK and I've just realised I contacted them about a study carried out by Stagecoach (so hardly independent!) claiming "commuters" could be "up to" (always the get-out clause) £900 better off by using my local route (Reddish to Manchester) than driving. Forget the fact that they have reduced the peak service from 7.5 to less than 6bph; partly replaced 2yo MMCs with 9yo E400s and slashed the parallel services at the Stockport end - thus impacting punctuality - that would mean a motorist spending £1500 a year on fuel and (in some - not all cases) parking. The journey is roughly 8 miles return (about a litre of fuel for as careful driver in a small car. So how does £1.20 a day x (av) 240 working days a year come to £1495? Does car parking really cost £1200 a year. And that's before you take into account the time penalty. The bus journey averages 7 mph, whearas driving is probably twice as fast.
Significantly, I sent an e-mail to BUUK about this on 24 Feb, and got an auto response promising a quick reply. I'm still waiting ; sound familiar?

A season ticket for the Piccadilly Gardens NCP is said to be £4.98 per day based on 225 working days, so that would be £1120 per year, so you certainly can spend that much on parking. For their 'up to' statement they probably assume you, like me, don't have a car that'll do 70mpg, and so are spending more on petrol. Plus wear and tear, but even for the daily commute I doubt many people think about how much that costs.