How far out is "London"

[Farnborough]

Currently, TfL operate the Elizabeth Line out to Reading in the west, and Abbey Wood and Shenfield in the East... and while Abbey Wood is within the London borough of Greenwich, Shenfield is in Essex, and Reading is way out into Berkshire. Meanwhile, there's suggestions about extending the southern branch out to Dartford, and maybe even Ebbsfleet; and the northern branch out to Southend (all however unlikely).

Likewise, TfL's Overground extends to Watford and Cheshunt in the north - neither of which is in London - and CrossRail 2 (if it happens) is proposed to extend between Broxbourne (Hertfordshire) and Epsom (Surrey)

Meanwhile, there's suggestions about TfL taking over various bits of GN, SWR, SE, Southern...


So how far out of the boundary of London would it be appropriate for TfL to operate trains?

 

[PGAT]

Currently, TfL operate the Elizabeth Line out to Reading in the west, and Abbey Wood and Shenfield in the East... and while Abbey Wood is within the London borough of Greenwich, Shenfield is in Essex, and Reading is way out into Berkshire. Meanwhile, there's suggestions about extending the southern branch out to Dartford, and maybe even Ebbsfleet; and the northern branch out to Southend (all however unlikely).

Likewise, TfL's Overground extends to Watford and Cheshunt in the north - neither of which is in London - and CrossRail 2 (if it happens) is proposed to extend between Broxbourne (Hertfordshire) and Epsom (Surrey)

Meanwhile, there's suggestions about TfL taking over various bits of GN, SWR, SE, Southern...


So how far out of the boundary of London would it be appropriate for TfL to operate trains?

Somewhere out in the home counties where it’s natural to turn around trains. I think in almost every hypothetical case it’s obvious where it stops being appropriate; Great Northern anywhere a 717 goes, SWR anywhere the 701 (will) run and Southeastern 376.

I’d say the only place of ambiguity is Horsham, out to the county beyond in West Sussex and not even proposed to be included in the Contactless payment zone. On the other hand, it is certainly a metro service which TfL would, in some parallel universe, take over especially nowadays where it doesn’t run semi-fast in London anymore

 

[JonathanH]

On the other hand, it is certainly a metro service which TfL would, in some parallel universe, take over especially nowadays where it doesn’t run semi-fast in London anymore

The trains from London via Sutton to Horsham only run there for convenience. It is a metro service joined to a rural one, well beyond the built up boundary of London.

I don't think TfL would likely take over Caterham and Tattenham Corner, let alone Horsham, even though the trains have multiple calling points in London, but it would come down to operational demands.

 

[30907]

If TfL were minded to serve every part of Greater London (and there would be no politicsl logic in picking and choosing), they would have to take responsibility (and bear any increased cost their policy demanded) for some sections beyond the boundary which would otherwise be left in limbo.
Just on the ex SR, Epsom Downs, Tottenham Corner and Caterham all fall into that category, as does Orpington-Sevenoaks (because of Chelsfield and Knockholt); ditto Hampton Court and Shepperton on the SW (and Feltham would be anomalous too). Plus Epsom and Dartford, because they are termini immediately beyond the boundary.

 

[frankmoh]

Somewhere out in the home counties where it’s natural to turn around trains. I think in almost every hypothetical case it’s obvious where it stops being appropriate; ...and Southeastern 376.

So is the run from Victoria to Orpington not in London?

 

[etr221]

Apart from London's more distant Airports (Southend and Stansted, both about 40 miles), and the far reaches of Project Oval (currently Shoeburyness and Bletchley, planned to be Brighton, Bedford and Cambridge), other distant 'London' railway points (present or past) include Bicester North (in London Travelwatch area), Horsham (London Transport Country Buses, so in the London Passenger Transport Pooling area), Brill and Verney Junction (LPTB trains).
Looking at distances, quite a significant number of these are about 40 miles out, with a few between 50 and 60 miles. Which perhaps should define the distance from London which TfL/London Transport, or whatever might come in the future, should operate, or have strong influence over. Possibly even a bit further - to the likes of the Kent Coast, Portsmouth, Northampton and Peterborough - the places whence daily commuting to London is seen as 'normal'.

 

[Farnborough]

Possibly even a bit further - to the likes of the Kent Coast, Portsmouth, Northampton and Peterborough - the places whence daily commuting to London is seen as 'normal'.

In effect, the whole of the erstwhile Network South East ?

I'm thinking a bit more focussed - and even this has to ignore the operational consequences of fleet allocations etc... so for SWR, I draw the line at the M25 (yes, I know this is not the boundary of London), with Staines and Woking as the edge - others may want to include Basingstoke and Guildford:

• Assign to TfL
  • Services around the Wimbledon loop
  • Services around the Hounslow Loop
  • Services to Shepperton
  • Services to Hampton Court
  • Services to Chessington South
  • Services to Chertsey and Weybridge - but only because I want to use this branch to extend the Lizzie Line to Woking!
• Borderline
  • Services to Windsor
  • Stopping services to Woking
  • Stopping services to Dorking and Guildford (Mole Valley Line)
• Unclear, depends on where you draw the boundary
  • Stopping services to Guildford (New Guildford Line)
  • Stopping services to Basingstoke
  • Mainline services to Farnham and Alton
  • Mainline services to Reading
• Keep within GBR (Regional?)
  • Mainline services to Salisbury and Exeter
  • Mainline services to Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth
  • Mainline services to Portsmouth

 

[A S Leib]

I'd say that

• Unless the once-proposed improvements to have 4 stopping tph between West Ruislip and Marylebone ever happen, too much of Chiltern within Greater London is followed by TfL services to go over to TfL.
• Apart from West Ealing – Greenford (ideally needing electrification) and future Crossrail 2 services, I'd say that the same principle holds for GWR, Heathrow Express (if it still exists by the time far more of London services are part of TfL), London Northwestern, Greater Anglia and c2c.
• I don't know exactly how RER's part-RATP part-SNCF operation works, but maybe something similar could be done for Great Northern and Thameslink. Malesherbes is further from central Paris than Luton, Stevenage, Gatwick or Rainham are from central London, although I'd keep the Ely and Bedford services out of TfL.
• If going as far as Rainham on Thameslink, I don't see why Gravesend Southeastern services (and all Greenwich, Bexleyheath and Bexley line services) shouldn't go to TfL, alongside Orpington and Sevenoaks terminators and Bromley North and Hayes services.
• Epsom, Epsom Downs, Tattenham Corner, Caterham and Reigate feel like the natural limit for TfL as far as Southern's concerned.
• With Epsom, Chessington South, Hampton Court and Shepperton as proposed Crossrail 2 routes, that would just leave Hounslow loop (Waterloo – Strawberry Hill – Waterloo and Waterloo – Weybridge) and possibly Windsor services as ones I'd put with TfL.

 

[BerkshireRails]

In effect, the whole of the erstwhile Network South East ?

I'm thinking a bit more focussed - and even this has to ignore the operational consequences of fleet allocations etc... so for SWR, I draw the line at the M25 (yes, I know this is not the boundary of London), with Staines and Woking as the edge - others may want to include Basingstoke and Guildford:

• Assign to TfL
  • Services around the Wimbledon loop
  • Services around the Hounslow Loop
  • Services to Shepperton
  • Services to Hampton Court
  • Services to Chessington South
  • Services to Chertsey and Weybridge - but only because I want to use this branch to extend the Lizzie Line to Woking!
• Borderline
  • Services to Windsor
  • Stopping services to Woking
  • Stopping services to Dorking and Guildford (Mole Valley Line)
• Unclear, depends on where you draw the boundary
  • Stopping services to Guildford (New Guildford Line)
  • Stopping services to Basingstoke
  • Mainline services to Farnham and Alton
  • Mainline services to Reading
• Keep within GBR (Regional?)
  • Mainline services to Salisbury and Exeter
  • Mainline services to Bournemouth, Poole and Weymouth
  • Mainline services to Portsmouth

There is a report from TfL which shows they want to take over Weybridge and Windsor services from SWR as part of the London Overground.

 

[swt_passenger]

IIRC none of the various TFL proposals ever reached Guildford or Woking, they were also expected to stay with SWT/SWR post Crossrail. So it wasn’t really a case of simplifying to ‘anywhere 701s turn up’.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

In a world where services are publicly funded but operated by third parties - and where the public funding splits between TfL for London and the UK/English government for everywhere else, surely the solution is
-TfL works out what it is prepared to pay for what level of service for services within London and pays that to the operator
- the government works out the same for services outside London and pays that to the operator
- the operator tips all the money into one pot, and provides a service to meet the contracts: if it turns out to be operationally more convenient to extend TfL funded services beyond (say) West Drayton to (say) Reading in excess of what has been contracted for outside London services then that bit of England gets some bonus trains for free.

 

[renegademaster]

London should really be expanded to at least everything within the M25

 

[jfollows]

When I lived in South Kensington, anywhere beyond Paddington was outside London!

 

[Magdalia]

London should really be expanded to at least everything within the M25

London existed long before the M25.

As it happens, the Greater London boundary and the M25 are not very different. The most significant places that are not in Greater London, but are inside the M25, are Rickmansworth. Watford, Chigwell, Dartford and Epsom.

 

[Farnborough]

As it happens, the Greater London boundary and the M25 are not very different. The most significant places that are not in Greater London, but are inside the M25, are Rickmansworth. Watford, Chigwell, Dartford and Epsom.

There are only three short stretches where the Greater London boundary aligns with the M25

• Along the top, between Potters Bar and Waltham Abbey
• to the east, near Brentford - incidentally, near to the only place where Greater London extends outside the M25...
• To the west, by Heathrow - which will be affected by the M25 realignment for R3 (unless the boundary is realigned at the same time)

However, given how synonymous the M25 is with "London" perhaps there is merit with extending the boundary to include everything inside it?

 

[stevieinselby]

There are only three short stretches where the Greater London boundary aligns with the M25

• Along the top, between Potters Bar and Waltham Abbey
• to the east, near Brentford - incidentally, near to the only place where Greater London extends outside the M25...
• To the west, by Heathrow - which will be affected by the M25 realignment for R3 (unless the boundary is realigned at the same time)

However, given how synonymous the M25 is with "London" perhaps there is merit with extending the boundary to include everything inside it?

Where you have places like Dartford, Staines and Epsom, and probably Watford and Loughton, that are very clearly part of the continuous built-up area of the London conurbation, it does seem incongruous that they are not part of London.
Other towns like Radlett, Rickmansworth, Cobham and Swanley – plus a load of villages – do feel like they are separate from London even though they are within the M25.

 

[frankmoh]

Have we not all agreed that the London Boroughs are in London? Today I saw someone on the internet say that Bromley as a whole was not part of London. Zone 1 in 20 minutes (or less) by the way.

This also sparks the debate of "where is central London?".

 

[Farnborough]

This also sparks the debate of "where is central London?".

I believe Charing Cross has long been the datum point for this?

On the other hand, Monument has a good claim, as it is where the A1, A3, A4, A10, A11 and A13 met...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I believe Charing Cross has long been the datum point for this?

Not the railway station of the same name, but what was originally the site of Queen Eleanor (of Castile)'s memorial cross, yes?

 

[BerkshireRails]

Where you have places like Dartford, Staines and Epsom, and probably Watford and Loughton, that are very clearly part of the continuous built-up area of the London conurbation, it does seem incongruous that they are not part of London.
Other towns like Radlett, Rickmansworth, Cobham and Swanley – plus a load of villages – do feel like they are separate from London even though they are within the M25.

On the other hand you have talks of putting Slough into London, which could include Staines, Ashford (Surrey) and Windsor. So there might be justification to redo the zones and put Slough & Windsor in Zone 9, Iver, Ashford & Staines in Zone 7 and Langley, Sunnymeads, Datchet & Wrasbuey in Zone 8.

 

[Wolfie]

London should really be expanded to at least everything within the M25

So places like Grays, which is very definitely London commuter suburb territory, are excluded but a great chunk of the remainder of Thurrock are included.... Whereas Watford which has long been a significant stand-alone town would be included.

While l note the "at least" and personally believe that Greater London should be expanded l still think that the M25 is a completely arbitrary boundary.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2025 ==

Have we not all agreed that the London Boroughs are in London? Today I saw someone on the internet say that Bromley as a whole was not part of London. Zone 1 in 20 minutes (or less) by the way.

This also sparks the debate of "where is central London?".

There is at least one Tory MP who wants a chunk of East London to secede back to Essex.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Aug 2025 ==

Not the railway station of the same name, but what was originally the site of Queen Eleanor (of Castile)'s memorial cross, yes?

I thought that it was the replica outside the station but l may be wrong.

 

[BerkshireRails]

So places like Grays, which is very definitely London commuter suburb territory, are excluded but a great chunk of the remainder of Thurrock are included.... Whereas Watford which has long been a significant stand-alone town would be included.

While l note the "at least" and personally believe that Greater London should be expanded l still think that the M25 is a completely arbitrary boundary.

How about we use the same standards they used for redoing London in the 1965 but for today?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I thought that it was the replica outside the station but l may be wrong.

Indeed. The Queen Eleanor memorial cross, outside the station, is a later 1865 replica. The original cross (built 1290s, demolished c. 1647) was very near the site of King Charles I's on horseback statue (originally put in its current position in 1675).

 

[The exile]

While l note the "at least" and personally believe that Greater London should be expanded l still think that the M25 is a completely arbitrary boundary.

Unless seriously impassable unaided (like the English Channel or the Alps /Pyrenees) all boundaries have a tendency to be arbitrary.

 

[etr221]

How about we use the same standards they used for redoing London in the 1965 but for today?

Or - for what its worth - going back to the London Transport Area, from 1933 - see an essay by the late Mike Horne for an explanation (or here to see it all on a map)

 

[frankmoh]

I believe Charing Cross has long been the datum point for this?

On the other hand, Monument has a good claim, as it is where the A1, A3, A4, A10, A11 and A13 met...

What I really meant is where does Central London end? I would say Zone 1 but I wouldnt count Shoreditch or Notting Hill ad Central.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There was a recent YouTube video by Nick Badley where he tried to visit all the stations in zones >6. It always struck me as odd that Shepperton isn't in a TfL zone now that those higher-numbered zones are more than just a Metropolitan Line oddity. After all Hampton Court is in zone 6 and has been for years despite being just outside the Greater London boundary.

 

[BerkshireRails]

There was a recent YouTube video by Nick Badley where he tried to visit all the stations in zones >6. It always struck me as odd that Shepperton isn't in a TfL zone now that those higher-numbered zones are more than just a Metropolitan Line oddity. After all Hampton Court is in zone 6 and has been for years despite being just outside the Greater London boundary.

Shepperton Line should be Zones 7 & 8. There should be complete rings of Zones 7-9. Some stations would move down zones, like Dartford from 8 to 7 and zone 9 would go out to around Gravesend. Horley would become part of Zone 9, with Gatwick remaining part of Zone 10.

 

[contrex]

London should really be expanded to at least everything within the M25

When I approved hotel expenses for certain people also paid fees by a certain Government department, the boundary for claiming London hotel allowance was 14 miles from Charing Cross, which is mostly inside the M25, except for a bit at the top.

 

[Magdalia]

Unless seriously impassable unaided (like the English Channel or the Alps /Pyrenees) all boundaries have a tendency to be arbitrary.

Physical boundaries that are not considered impassable now were serious obstacles in historical times, including when the railways were constructed.

In Victorian times the North Downs were the obstacle on the south side, for example Polhill and Merstham/Quarry tunnels.

On the north side the obstacle was the ridge of hills under which the Potters Bar and Elstree tunnels pass.

It isn't an accident that most definitions of the edge of London incorporate these in some way.