How do you .....

[Donny Dave]

.... Cross from 1 platform to the other at Staplehurst in Kent?

A. Buy a return to Ashford and use the train.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/8583558.stm

 

[142094]

I've just seen this, but don't understand why the lifts weren't made publicly operational at the beginning. Probably due to the threat of vandalism or H+S?

 

[First class]

"We assumed you could remotely access it [the lift] by calling the help point, but apparently you had to pre-book it and my only option was to get a train to Ashford, cross the tracks and come back to access the other platform."

All the disabled assistance publications tell you that you need to prebook assistance, usually 24 hours. Had they of complied, they would have been fine.

 

[royaloak]

And when they are out of order because of vandalism watch her complain then, the rules are clearly displayed so why didnt she do her "bit", oh I forgot the railways are meant to bend over backwards to keep everyone happy at any expense!

 

[transportphoto]

Hope she received her money back though, although it was her fault unless she wasnt a regular traveler and assumed that a Staffed Stn would have Plt Staff to assist.

 

[royaloak]

If it was her fault (which you admit), why should she get her money back?

 

[wintonian]

The routing guide has this to say:

DISABLED TRAVELLERS
Train Operating Companies may make special arrangements for disabled
customers and an accompanying passenger via the Disabled Persons
Reporting System (DPRS). Provided these arrangements are made in
accordance with the procedures laid down in the Manual, they will override
the requirements of the Routeing Guide. All staff involved in revenue
protection duties will be advised, on each individual occasion, of customers
who are exempted under these arrangements.

Surely it’s not too hard to put in place an arrangement in cases like this so the passenger isn’t charged. In an ideal world you wouldn’t have to travel X amount of miles to get to the other side of the platform anyway.

 

[royaloak]

Its not difficult at all, she rings up the day before and staff will be there to meet her! It really is that simple.

 

[paul1609]

TBH in Southern land its fairly common for disabled people to travel on spec. I regularly talk to a guy on the train to work who travels between Barnham and Chichester every day. He is able to get on the train in his wheelchair without assistance or a ramp. hes lucky that both stations have ramp or level access to the street but if he was relying on a lift hed probably be stuffed if it was suddenly out of action.

 

[wintonian]

I know it's difficult to make changes on the network, but we shouldn't really be saying to disabled users; "you can travel by train but only if you book in advance and we would rather you didn't just turn up on the day like other people do"

Of course the railway is unlikely to become fully accusable in the near future, but we should make it as accessible as possible.

Edit

 

[142094]

Its not difficult at all, she rings up the day before and staff will be there to meet her! It really is that simple.

Only problem with this is that if you don't know that you need someone to operate the lift at that station, then you're in a bit of a pickle. I have to say that I've never heard this happening, as all the stations I know up here the lifts are passenger operated and you only need to book assistance on the mainline services, and even then if you turn up on the day they still help you.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Its not difficult at all, she rings up the day before and staff will be there to meet her! It really is that simple.

Are you trying to anger people or are you just stupid?

There is absolutely no way that a disabled person should have to make special arrangements. What if, one day, a disabled person wakes up in the morning - like anyone else might - and thinks "i may just take a little trip out today"? Are you saying that, due to their disability, they are not able to do that?

As for your comment about the railway having to bend over backwards to please everyone, why shouldn't they do everything they can to make life easy for less physically able people? In fact, they shouldn't even be told to do it. It should be something they think about automatically.

It looks very much like you just have a problem with disabled people.

 

[313103]

Actually lets get one thing straight, This is not about ALL disabled people, but a small minority those that are wheelchair bound. Which is where this problem arises.

The argument being made by some on here is that why should transport organistaions fund their existing infrastructure and build new facilities for a small part of the population. As to make EVERTHING wheelchair accesable costs an absolute fortune where money has come from existing funds.

The qusetion should be should all transport facilities that do not have wheelchair accesable facilities close until they do? Should the vast majority of Passengers be inconvienence by the minority, just ask those who live in London where part of the massive bill deficit in TFLs budget was building all the buses to be wheelchair accesable. Each new bus costs on average £250,000 a tidy sum when you consider that most busy routes require about 55 to 70 vehicles.

At the end of the day it is not about disabled access its about wheelchair access.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Actually lets get one thing straight, This is not about ALL disabled people, but a small minority those that are wheelchair bound. Which is where this problem arises.

The argument being made by some on here is that why should transport organistaions fund their existing infrastructure and build new facilities for a small part of the population. As to make EVERTHING wheelchair accesable costs an absolute fortune where money has come from existing funds.....

.....At the end of the day it is not about disabled access its about wheelchair access.

Unfortunately, it isn't. And you are missing the point. Disabled access covers everything from the partially sighted to the elderly. In essence, anybody who may have an issue doing something for any reason.

With step free access, we are talking about all those who are mobility limited - who may or may not be in a wheelchair. Of course, when people think of mobility impairment, the wheelchair bound immidately come to mind. But that is certainly not the extent of the issue.

The issue in this case was that a station that was listed as having disabled access was not able to be used by a disabled person. Which is ridiculous.

It is also ridiculous to suggest that we shut down everything that isn't accessible. You have clearly taken it too far. Of course, it will take time to make improvements nationwide. But that should be the number 1 priority for anyone doing any stock replacement or station enhancement in the future. They should not need to be told to do it.

What some people are arguing on this thread is that companies should be allowed to deliberately discriminate against certain sections of the community because it costs them a bit of money - in essence, sticking two fingers up at people who cannot walk and saying "not my problem". Worse than that, certain posters have clearly shown either a distinct lack of understanding of the needs of disabled people or, worse, a complete and utter lack of respect - hence why I waded into the thread.

 

[Deerfold]

Should the vast majority of Passengers be inconvienence by the minority, just ask those who live in London where part of the massive bill deficit in TFLs budget was building all the buses to be wheelchair accesable. Each new bus costs on average £250,000 a tidy sum when you consider that most busy routes require about 55 to 70 vehicles.

At the end of the day it is not about disabled access its about wheelchair access.

I don't think so - the specification for new buses was simply changed and all *new* buses bought were wheelchair accessible. Very few buses in London are much over 10 years old so it didn't take very long (in transport improvement terms) for London to have a 100% wheelchair accessible and DiPTAC-compliant fleet (apart from 8 routemasters -plus spares- which run on routes 9 and 15 alongside other buses). This was the case long before the current deficit. I suspect increasing the fleet size by 33% since 2001 may have had a rather larger impact on budgets - though most Londoners seem to have appreciated that.

Other places are taking longer mostly because they changed their specifications later and have older buses.

Also, *most* busy routes do not use 55-70 vehicles. Route 38 uses 72 buses in the am peak -the highest of any route. Route 19 from Battersea to Finsbury Park every 6 minutes uses 28 in the am peak. I'm struggling to think of a handful that use 50 or more buses on the route.

 

[thefab444]

Whilst I've every sympathy with wheelchair users, I imagine the reason for requiring them to book in advance (24 hours isn't exactly a long time is it!) is to minimise delays caused by loading wheelchairs on to trains, and to ensure that staff are available.

The need for wheelchair spaces, and huge wheelchair accessible toilets which may get used by a wheelchair person once a week, often results in decreased seating capacity on new trains. Wheelchair people should consider themselves lucky with what they've got - at least they get a seat!

(Last comment made in jest before I get assaulted by whoshotjimmi)

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Wheelchair people should consider themselves lucky with what they've got - at least they get a seat!

(Last comment made in jest before I get assaulted by whoshotjimmi)

Outrageous.......

 

[thefab444]

Outrageous.......

Not as outrageous as your hair.

Sorry Jimmi, but I imagine quite a few people will support RoyalOak's comments. It's certainly not moronic or stupid to expect somebody who needs assistance when travelling to have to book said assistance in advance (only a day!), it's common sense!

 

[Broken Viking]

Actually, the BSML is pretty bad for wheelchair/step-free access in my neck of the woods...And those in wheelchairs have to take some rather long-winded workings to get to where they want to go! hock:

At Farnborough Main, the only step-free access in/out of the station is on platform 2 - Platform 1 is only reachable via footbridge - And due to the fast lines and poor sighting caused by an adjacent bend, it's not possible for an at-grade board crossing (Like the one at Aldershot) to be provided.
Consequently: If a wheelchair bound passenger arrives at Farnborough intending to travel to London, they first have to travel the wrong way to Basingstoke to cross the line via the lifts/subway there before boarding the next train heading back towards London! hock:

Even if SWT allow the passenger and their helper(s) to do the extra return to Basingstoke at no cost (Which I sincerely hope SWT do!) that procedure must still add a good 45-75 extra minutes onto a disabled passengers journey, which is not exactly acceptable.
I've heard on the grapevine that a new bridge with lifts is due to be installed at Farnborough, which will remove the need for this odd and time consuming practice. That said though, it's most concerning that it's taken NR this effin' long to realise something they ought to have done at least 15 years ago (And only because BR also stupidly neglected it as well)... :roll:hock::roll:

The other interesting anomaly in this matter is Necropolis*. Aside from the station being a timetabled interchange point for switching between Basingstoke and Alton services (Up Alton to Dn Basingstoke, and vice-versa) both of the station platforms are only accessible via staircases as the station itself is elevated. Now I for one would love to know how this and other similar stations (Tolworth, Byfleet & New Whore etc) stand on the accessibility issue, especially since the Disability Discrimination Act became law... hock:

* - More commonly known as Brookwood nowadays, but Necropolis was it's original name IIRC.

 

[chrisg]

Not as outrageous as your hair.

Sorry Jimmi, but I imagine quite a few people will support RoyalOak's comments. It's certainly not moronic or stupid to expect somebody who needs assistance when travelling to have to book said assistance in advance (only a day!), it's common sense!

I do have to say that I think the remark about them always getting a seat, whilst obviously made in jest, is still in fairly poor taste.

I agree that it takes time to alter the buildings of an entire network to enable proper disabled access (especially when some of the buildings dealt with can date from the Victoria era), but it must be a top priority. This issue doesn't just relate to wheelchairs or even disablement in the traditional sense - my mother has a spinal problem which means she wouldn't be able to use the stairs, however she isn't classed as disabled. What about a young mother with a buggy, wishing to take her children out for the day?

The idea that people who cannot use the stairs for whatever reason should be forced to wait 24 hours before making a journey is also quite unacceptable as a permanent state of affairs.

 

[Wyvern]

* - More commonly known as Brookwood nowadays, but Necropolis was it's original name IIRC.

Off topic but it was on the London Necropolis Railway which ran from a terminus near Waterloo to Brookwood Cemetary.

 

[royaloak]

So jimmi, oh we are talking about wheel chair passengers, it doesnt really matter what you want to turn this into.
Have all buses with steps been withdrawn and replaced with low floor ones so wheel chairs can use them, do bus companies provide taxis where needed for wheel chair users, are all/ any road coaches wheel chair accessible?

Who pays if all trains and stations are made 100% accessible? Would be interesting to see how they do it at some stations.

As for your "stupid" and "idiot" comments aimed at me earlier, "comment removed as it lowers me more to your standards"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

.
I've heard on the grapevine that a new bridge with lifts is due to be installed at Farnborough, which will remove the need for this odd and time consuming practice. That said though, it's most concerning that it's taken NR this effin' long to realise something they ought to have done at least 15 years ago (And only because BR also stupidly neglected it as well)... :roll:hock::roll:

How many stations need to be done in the whole country, why should BR have done it at what was (is) a small local station?

.The other interesting anomaly in this matter is Necropolis*. Aside from the station being a timetabled interchange point for switching between Basingstoke and Alton services (Up Alton to Dn Basingstoke, and vice-versa) both of the station platforms are only accessible via staircases as the station itself is elevated. Now I for one would love to know how this and other similar stations (Tolworth, Byfleet & New Whore etc) stand on the accessibility issue, especially since the Disability Discrimination Act became law... hock:

* - More commonly known as Brookwood nowadays, but Necropolis was it's original name IIRC.

Only applies to new build stations, older ones are made accessible when refurbished (if reasonable), only alternative is to close all non accessible stations for all users, that would be popular!

 

[Greenback]

I think the DDA is a sensible compromise between the desire to improve accessibility for disabled, or less mobile passengers as well as tose with heavy luggage etc amd the money available to do it. Most of the network was designed and built in a different age, with different attitiudes, and we, as a society, simply can't be expected ot put right every bit of infrastructure, bus or train, in even 15 years. We simply couldn't afford it.

In the meantime, the railway provides reasonable adjustments in allowing people to book in advance, paying for taxi's or offering easements where necessary to allow customers to make their journeys.

I don;t really see what else can realistically be done.

 

[Deerfold]

So jimmi, oh we are talking about wheel chair passengers, it doesnt really matter what you want to turn this into.
Have all buses with steps been withdrawn and replaced with low floor ones so wheel chairs can use them, do bus companies provide taxis where needed for wheel chair users, are all/ any road coaches wheel chair accessible?

All? No, but rapidly increasing numbers are. 100% of London buses are wheelchair accessible. More councils are specifying that buses should be in their contracts. National Express and other operators are now starting to use wheelchair-accessible coaches (though similarly to the railways they ask users to phone in advance to ensure one is used on their journey - the Greenline coach every 20 minutes to Luton airport is almost always operated by them - http://www.greenline.co.uk/assisted-travel/).

Who pays if all trains and stations are made 100% accessible? Would be interesting to see how they do it at some stations.

This is the trickiest part - it's relatively easy to enhance replacement vehicles - there's always going to be difficult decisions about whether money gets spent on improvements for all or accessibility for some (and sometimes these will overlap).

Only applies to new build stations, older ones are made accessible when refurbished (if reasonable), only alternative is to close all non accessible stations for all users, that would be popular!

That would be silly, but it'd be hoped we can get a decent amount of the network accessible each year.

There was a bizarre campaign a little while ago to ensure there was a wheelchair accessible car park on each side of Steeton and Silsden Station. I really didn't see how that helped as you'd expect to arrive and depart on different sides wherever you parked (even if it is a pain to get from one side to the other even if able bodied - the ramp access adds a good few hundred metres on again - and if the passenger then wants to get to a bus stop they're in the opposite directions to the accessible exits)

 

[jopsuk]

I find the wheelchair ramp to the southbound platform at Whittlesford Parkway amusing for the sort of reason- there is no disabled access between the north and southbound sides at all, unless you count a long trek round along the (pavement less) A505. Without someone else bringing the car round, a return trip for a wheelchair user from there is rather tricky.

 

[royaloak]

London buses are slightly different as the contracts will state the maximum age of the buses allowed to be used, 7 years I think. Now a bus will have a life of about 15 years, so what do you do with it for the other 8 years.

All the big operators will transfer them out of London to other parts of the business with the result that these have only recently started receiving second hand low floor deckers, as londons first flush of low floors are now 8 years old they have already been moved on, and so it rolls along, the other parts of the business will get some new buses but not ALL new.

The railways dont work on the same principle and trains are replaced as they are life expired which can be 30 or more years old so until the current fleets get replaced there isnt much that can be done.

 

[Deerfold]

All the big operators will transfer them out of London to other parts of the business with the result that these have only recently started receiving second hand low floor deckers, as londons first flush of low floors are now 8 years old they have already been moved on, and so it rolls along, the other parts of the business will get some new buses but not ALL new.

The railways dont work on the same principle and trains are replaced as they are life expired which can be 30 or more years old so until the current fleets get replaced there isnt much that can be done.

Not everywhere gets London's old buses though - my local bus company has a 90-something % accessible fleet - and marks in the timetable the few journeys not run by them. And alhtough it's not a quick process the percentage of accessible buses is creeping up (of course you need a decent percentage in one area to be able to bank on one coming along next)

Presumably some trains can be made accessible with refurbishments - something it's not really worth doing with buses.

 

[HSTfan!!!]

Whilst I've every sympathy with wheelchair users, I imagine the reason for requiring them to book in advance (24 hours isn't exactly a long time is it!) is to minimise delays caused by loading wheelchairs on to trains, and to ensure that staff are available.

precisely that, I will help anyone who turns up on the day, i'm not going to discriminate at the end of the day, but it can be awkward when someone turns up last minute out of the blue, you're short staffed and they want you drop everything... it's not practical and find myself risking safety to help people.

 

[Greenback]

Not everywhere gets London's old buses though - my local bus company has a 90-something % accessible fleet - and marks in the timetable the few journeys not run by them. And alhtough it's not a quick process the percentage of accessible buses is creeping up (of course you need a decent percentage in one area to be able to bank on one coming along next)

Presumably some trains can be made accessible with refurbishments - something it's not really worth doing with buses.

It's not a quick process with buses, but it's quicker than with trains due to the longer life span of the latter. Older trains have been modified during refurbishment, of course, but this thread began by talking about lifts, and it is the stations on the network that will take the longest time and most amount of money to update and adapt.

New stations naturally must be fully complaint with the disability access laws.

 

[jopsuk]

As far as accesible trains are concerened, is there much/any difference in the floor height (above the track) between (eg) the Desito and Electrostar classes? There are major obstacles to having level access from platform to train- it is achieved on the DLR as all trains stop at all stations (so no "fast" services passing through bouncing/swaying) and all stations were built straight and level- the advantage of building an all-new system designed to be accesible from the drawing board forwards. The likes of the Jubilee extention is similar. Good access is much harder (and more expensive) to retrofit.