How do they plan to link Derby city centre to HS2?

[Comstock]

Yes, I know it's agggeeesss away yet.

But this must surely be something they have considered? The tram already goes nearly all the way from the centre of Nottingham to the proposed HS2 site at Toton. What about going the other way though?

I don't see how you could get the tram west from Toton to Derby without knocking down a lot of houses in Long Eaton. Are they planning to do this?

Or will it just be a bus link, perhaps just an additional stop on the existing Red Arrow service?

Or something else entirely?

 

[edwin_m]

I've not seen any announcements or even any discussion, which is worrying.

Note also, as I've posted in other topics, that the tram on its own isn't adequate for the Nottingham link. Central Nottingham will be quicker to London via the existing MML than via Toton and HS2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the basis that more people will go *from* Derby than *to* it, and thus quite a lot of people will either live nearer the HS2 station or find it more convenient to drive to it than a city centre, probably nothing at all unless a commercial bus company fancies it.

 

[Comstock]

Is there going to be parking at Toton itself?

 

[higthomas]

I'm under the impression thunder said there will be something, they just don't know what yet. I'm under the impression there will almost certainly be a conventional railway station next to it, it was said in the discussion in the planning document. I think the proposed a Derby-Toton-Nottingham rail service to link with trains, but at this stage it's not firmly planned yet.

 

[kevjs]

Yes, I know it's agggeeesss away yet.

But this must surely be something they have considered? The tram already goes nearly all the way from the centre of Nottingham to the proposed HS2 site at Toton. What about going the other way though?

I don't see how you could get the tram west from Toton to Derby without knocking down a lot of houses in Long Eaton. Are they planning to do this?

Or will it just be a bus link, perhaps just an additional stop on the existing Red Arrow service?

Or something else entirely?

Toton also has a fair sized P&R site for the tram - wouldn't be surprised if HS2's links in with that.

Apparently the East Midlands Council back the extension of the tram from Toton to Derby http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-34782082 - and the proposed routes http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/pos...am-tram-link/story-29329063-detail/story.html

The tram is one of a range of options being considered by planners to connect Midlands cities to the planned East Midlands HS2 Hub station at Toton, including a high-quality cycle route, high-speed buses, trains and improvements to the road network.
Read more at http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/pos...9329063-detail/story.html#L8xUKvRhWUVwqeuE.99

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is there going to be parking at Toton itself?

I would be utterly amazed were there not a very large multi storey car park. These out of town stations will act primarily as Parkways.

 

[158756]

It won't do much good for the economy of Derby if anyone wanting to go to Derby has to get a bus or ring a taxi from Toton. Likewise Nottingham if there's only a tram stopping at every lamppost.

If you're going to have stations at Toton (and Meadowhall as was previously proposed) you need to connect them to the cities. The East Midlands bit of HS2 looks like it was planned on the basis that everyone goes to London and no-one the other way.

A problem for any heavy rail service to Toton though will be that you either have to lengthen journeys between Derby and Nottingham, or run extra trains for the purpose of serving Toton, which I doubt passenger numbers would justify.

 

[Haydn1971]

On the basis that HS2 Phase 2 hasn't been approved for construction yet, I'd suggest that local/regional linking services would be low on any local transport authority agenda.

The way I see things going are as follows...
- High capacity car parking at the station
- Highway improvements on the A52 including a revised junction with the M1
- ALR will already be in place on the M1
- Tramway extended 1km to the station
- Express tram loops added as was proposed in Sheffield
- A new heavy rail chord at Trowell closing the missing link
- A direct heavy rail semi-fast service running Derby-Toton-Nottingham (2ph) using the new chord
- A direct heavy rail semi-fast service running Matlock-Belper-Derby-Toton-Nottingham-(Newark-Lincoln) or (Grantham-Peterborough) (1ph) using the new chord
- An all stops service linking Derby-Toton-Nottingham extending each end as appropriate (2ph) possibly going via Beeston - i.e. Reverse at Toton

This is providing 5 trains per hour linking Derby and Nottingham, plus probably by that time 2 trains per hour doing the MML services to compliment HS2 - Toton heavy rail will be a very busy station

 

[edwin_m]

On the basis that HS2 Phase 2 hasn't been approved for construction yet, I'd suggest that local/regional linking services would be low on any local transport authority agenda.

Unfortunately that seems to be the case, but they need to get their act together pretty soon.

5TPH at Toton sounds impressive but in practice may be both excessive and inadequate. Without burrowing through the HS2 website, Toton only gets two or three calls per hour though they will probably be at the same minutes past each time. Since there is little other reason to go to Toton the trains providing the link to Derby and Nottingham must be timed to connect into and out of the HS2 services, severely constraining the timetable for the region. And if there is more than one connecting train in the same direction off a high speed arrival, nearly all the passengers will be on the first one.

With the busy nature of our rail network, how achievable is all this? It is one reason I suspect that Derby and Nottingham will continue to rely to a large extent on the existing MML route for their London services. Even with the ideal set of connections, 53 minutes on HS2 plus about 12min on a connecting train is going to struggle against a through journey in 90min or a little less, once the hassle factor of changing trains is taken into account.

 

[najaB]

Since there is little other reason to go to Toton the trains providing the link to Derby and Nottingham must be timed to connect into and out of the HS2 services, severely constraining the timetable for the region.

HS2 will be the catalyst for wholesale recasts of the timetable nationally so that may not be as significant a problem as it first appears to be.

 

[Haydn1971]

There are six trains per hour in the most recent Oct 2013 schedule - so 12 per hour counting both directions - that could of course change with the recent changes at Sheffield. I strongly suspect that a private car or taxi ride directly to Toton will be the most appealing way of access, the connecting services to Nottingham and Derby will be certainly of more appeal to those without access to private cars, that could include business trips to and from the HS2 station to regional destinations in the East Midlands.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HS2 will be the catalyst for wholesale recasts of the timetable nationally so that may not be as significant a problem as it first appears to be.

Probably the largest recast in living memory.

 

[Class 170101]

HS2 will be the catalyst for wholesale recasts of the timetable nationally so that may not be as significant a problem as it first appears to be.

Probably the largest recast in living memory.

I just hope NR are up to the task of making every operators' timetable aspirations work for this recast as best as possible.

 

[Haydn1971]

I just hope NR are up to the task of making every operators' timetable aspirations work for this recast as best as possible.

The first clues of what's to come may come through franchise invitation to tender on East Midlands this year as to when the franchise ends, but I'd expect more clues in 2018 with the CrossCountry franchise end date and I'd start to get very worried if someone at the DfT hasn't included clues on recast in the East Coast franchise documents by 2021 !

HS2 may go two ways, either all services will get integrated into a new franchise and the existing franchises remapped significantly or perhaps more likely, we may see HS2 services added to future WCML/Chiltern/MML/ECML/XC franchises to give a degree of competition.

 

[deltic]

East Midlands Route Study refers to 4tph shuttle service from both Derby and Nottingham to Toton

Both recent East and West Midlands route studies outline some considerable recasting of services after HS2 and East-West rail

eg Hull to Reading/Southampton
Derby to Manchester Airport
Cardiƒff to Bradford
Reading to Nottingham

 

[najaB]

... or perhaps more likely, we may see HS2 services added to future WCML/Chiltern/MML/ECML/XC franchises to give a degree of competition.

You know, for some reason that option had never occurred to me - it was just an assumption that there would be a new HS2 TOC. It makes so much more sense for the 'traditional' TOCs to operate services over the new infrastructure - at least with the Classic-compatible sets.

 

[Haydn1971]

Exciting times indeed !

 

[gpmartin]

Will Derby (Midland) itself receive any classic compatible services? Or is that another unknown for now?

 

[Haydn1971]

Will Derby (Midland) itself receive any classic compatible services? Or is that another unknown for now?

Not in the current plans, given that a city the size of Sheffield has had to fight so hard to get the CC services, I'd doubt that Derby would or Nottingham would.

Although that could change I guess...

 

[Grinner]

It seems to me that there simply isn't going to capacity on the southern section of HS2 for classic compatible services between London and the East Midlands cities. However I do think they could be value in running services northbound from Notts/ Derby to Leeds or on towards York / Newcastle.

 

[kevjs]

It seems to me that there simply isn't going to capacity on the southern section of HS2 for classic compatible services between London and the East Midlands cities. However I do think they could be value in running services northbound from Notts/ Derby to Leeds or on towards York / Newcastle.

Shame there's little chance of the spare capacity between phase 1 and phase 2 being opening to run services to and from the East Midlands to allow upgrade (i.e. straightening) works on the Midland Mainline to make it's timings more competitive. Obviosuly that would require Phase 1 to be extended to Toton rather than Birmingham but still...

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

HS2 will be obsolete for Derby once the Midland Mainline is made Electric, faster trains etc.

 

[deltic]

It seems to me that there simply isn't going to capacity on the southern section of HS2 for classic compatible services between London and the East Midlands cities. However I do think they could be value in running services northbound from Notts/ Derby to Leeds or on towards York / Newcastle.

Certainly local authorities in East Midlands are pushing for this eg Leicester to Leeds and Nottingham to Newcastle

 

[kevjs]

Certainly local authorities in East Midlands are pushing for this eg Leicester to Leeds and Nottingham to Newcastle

How viable would a Nottingham to Toton to Derby to Birmingham to Manchester service be - any faster than the existing Liverpool to Norwich service?

 

[deltic]

How viable would a Nottingham to Toton to Derby to Birmingham to Manchester service be - any faster than the existing Liverpool to Norwich service?

It wouldnt be - there is a case being considered for running a fast Nottingham, Toton, Derby, Stoke, to Manchester or to Crewe, Manchester Airport. Would need Stoke-Derby electrified and some considerable line upgrades but would radically improve access from East Midlands to Manchester.

 

[bangor-toad]

Some time ago http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=107580&page=3 I got my crayons out and thought about Derby <--> HS2 <--> Nottingham and came up with this:

It shows how that a new bit of track (in grey) could allow the route to be run without reversal. This could be an alternative to putting a rather tightly curved chord in at Trowell. It does involve a moderately tight curve but that'd be just out of the station and so there wouldn't be much of a time penalty. Yes, there are s few houses in the way and there's the M1 to cross...

Of course it's just me and some crayons so don't even think it's costed out or the engineering details looked at.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, I know it's agggeeesss away yet.

But this must surely be something they have considered?

I'm sure that it has been considered, but look at the bigger picture.

Part of the way that these big projects work is by trying to limit their own scope so that other people pay for the costs of associated works.

So Crossrail was only going to run to Maidenhead (conveniently keeping Crossrail costs low), but once the cost of electrifying to Reading (and remodelling etc) gets paid by the GWML electrification, Crossrail are quick to announce that they *do* want to go to Reading after all.

Same goes for the connection at Curzon Street to the "conventional" network. It's not in HS2's scope, so that they can get someone else to pay for it, out of a different "pot". So, it'll be funded by the cost of upgrading the XC network (or something like that).

HS2 don't want their costs to be escalated by tagging on lots of "related" works, otherwise it'll become like the "pork barrel" schemes in US politics, where everyone will only vote for the proposal if they can get a slice of related funding for their own pet projects.

I'm sure we'll see a heavy rail link to central Derby, but I can see why HS2 don't want to fund that themselves - leave it to someone else's budget.

Cynical?

A problem for any heavy rail service to Toton though will be that you either have to lengthen journeys between Derby and Nottingham, or run extra trains for the purpose of serving Toton, which I doubt passenger numbers would justify.

On the one hand, there's going to be so many people potentially doing this that we need some "solution", according to people on the thread, but there won't be sufficient people to justify a shuttle service?

 

[edwin_m]

On the one hand, there's going to be so many people potentially doing this that we need some "solution", according to people on the thread, but there won't be sufficient people to justify a shuttle service?

The need for a solution relates to wider economics and politics. A "Ryanair station" with no link to the city centres won't be good at bringing in visitors and investment to either Nottingham or Derby, but can still allow affluent car-borne travellers an easy route to London and elsewhere. To my mind that simply exacerbates the risk of HS2 benefiting London at the expense of the regions. But with some passengers at Toton using the tram, buses or driving the number on a dedicated shuttle would be far fewer than alight from each London train at Derby today.

The situation is much worse than it was at Sheffield, where the Meadhowhall option had enough existing rail routes running through it to provide good links to most of South Yorkshire without having to run any extra feeder service.

Hence my view that Derby and Nottingham either need to make a heavy rail feeder service a high priority, or press to ensure the MML is not downgraded and continues to provide their main London service.

 

[HSTEd]

That depends - is the Toton station in a green belt?
If it is not then you can forget about the centres of Nottingham or Derby - within 20 years Toton will be the economic centre of both.

 

[158756]

That depends - is the Toton station in a green belt?
If it is not then you can forget about the centres of Nottingham or Derby - within 20 years Toton will be the economic centre of both.

The Toton site is mostly surrounded by housing. The few fields next to it are proposed to become business parks and more houses. In any case it'd be completely unacceptable politically to intentionally create mass unemployment in Derby and Nottingham.

Edit: And the message that high speed rail will kill your city is a sure fire way to kill off any future proposed lines.