How do they decide the order in which to despatch late trains

[jrh2254]

I was on the delayed 11.03 Birmingham to Edinburgh train today. It initially said it would be departing at 11.19, but eventually departed at 11.22
I checked the 11.19 BHM to Nottingham and it said that was delayed 2 mins , so I thought my train would set off first.
Eventually the 11.19 Nottingham train departed at 11.21 and the Edinburgh train departed at 11.22

This meant that the Edinburgh train crawled behind the Nottingham train all the way to Derby.

Why did the signaller decide to do this? Logic would say the Edinburgh train would go first and make up time stopping only at Burton (the Nottingham train had to stop at Tamworth as well).
I did notice the Nottingham train at Derby station waiting as it arrived early!
The Edinburgh train must have lost another 10 minutes of time!

 

[Master29]

Could potentially be a number of factors involving the network as a whole. New St is pretty central. I can however understand your frustration at this.

 

[DanNCL]

Had the same with an LNER HST between Newcastle and York yesterday. The HST was due out at 11:59, and a TPE service was due out at 12:03. The HST was a few minutes late so the TPE service left at 12:03 as scheduled, and the HST left at 12:05, stuck behind the 100 mph stopping 185 all the way to York, which delayed it even further. Decisions like that do puzzle me, surely it would have been better to hold the TPE service by a couple of minutes at Newcastle to let the LNER service go first?

 

[CMS]

I was on the delayed 11.03 Birmingham to Edinburgh train today. It initially said it would be departing at 11.19, but eventually departed at 11.22
I checked the 11.19 BHM to Nottingham and it said that was delayed 2 mins , so I thought my train would set off first.
Eventually the 11.19 Nottingham train departed at 11.21 and the Edinburgh train departed at 11.22

This meant that the Edinburgh train crawled behind the Nottingham train all the way to Derby.

Why did the signaller decide to do this? Logic would say the Edinburgh train would go first and make up time stopping only at Burton (the Nottingham train had to stop at Tamworth as well).
I did notice the Nottingham train at Derby station waiting as it arrived early!
The Edinburgh train must have lost another 10 minutes of time!

Only the signaller or service manager/controller will be 100% sure, but looking at RTT I would imagine it's because they needed platform 10 (the Nottingham train's platform) more urgently than yours. An incoming delayed LM would just have been on the approach at that time so they must have wanted to get rid of the Nottingham asap. http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/P83007/2018/10/24/advanced

It could be any reason though, I know of an instance where a train ran 15-17 mins early after a colleague informed me the cover driver who had to drive it would have ran out of driving hours otherwise. A driver manager took over at the first opportunity and the train ran on time afterwards. It might seem simple, but no doubt this had knock-on effects to other trains by not respecting the traced path/timings.

 

[Sunset route]

Can also depend on what is the locations regulating policy, we have a mixture at our location of normal PPM with passenger trains up 4.59 late and freights trains 9.59 late can be regulated against as long as the trains involved can make their PPM at their final destination and other regulating points, right time only with the exception of all class 9s heading towards the Thameslink Core where they can be up to 4mins late and take preference over everything else. Sometimes you just have to clear a line, Junction or platform even if it goes against the policy otherwise the knock on effects will far worse than the original delay.

 

[Senex]

It can seem very puzzling if you're sitting in a train without the full information to try to understand. One day last week I was on an XC train through Sheffield, planned arrival xx21 and departure xx24. It was a minute late in and ready to go on time, but was then held so that a Hope Valley local running 12 late could leave straight in front at xx26. The result was a crawl to Dore and 4 late into Derby where I left the train. I looked it up later and noted that its arrival into Birmingham, where pathing really is critical, was still 2 late. It seemed to me that if the XC had gone out of Sheffield on time, then the local would have got a further delay of no more than an extra minute, if anything at all.

 

[43094]

Regarding the Newcastle example, given the congested nature and different stopping patterns of Newcastle - York, I'd imagine there will be a 'signalling regulation statement' regarding the latest possible time an LNER can arrive at Newcastle, before the TPE is allowed to depart first...

 

[Killingworth]

It can seem very puzzling if you're sitting in a train without the full information to try to understand. One day last week I was on an XC train through Sheffield, planned arrival xx21 and departure xx24. It was a minute late in and ready to go on time, but was then held so that a Hope Valley local running 12 late could leave straight in front at xx26. The result was a crawl to Dore and 4 late into Derby where I left the train. I looked it up later and noted that its arrival into Birmingham, where pathing really is critical, was still 2 late. It seemed to me that if the XC had gone out of Sheffield on time, then the local would have got a further delay of no more than an extra minute, if anything at all.

But we dont know why the Hope Valley stopper had been held. Often it's to allow a delayed TPE fast to go first. If delayed any further the Norwich-Liverpool will catch up before Chinley and be delayed in turn. Even if it doesn't the stopper is likely to hit delays at Piccadilly and be late on it's next return service - and that may be another reason for it having been late at Sheffield.

Once a scheduled path is lost knock on effects can be quite far reaching. Attention to some regular minor delays can pay big dividends. On the Hope Valley line redoubling at Dore and creation of two freight passing loops should help - when Network Rail finally get down to it.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I was once on a XC at Birmingham and the same thing happened, We left a little late behind a local stopper which was on time and called all stations to Longbridge. But the reason we were held, was our driver had been delayed arriving, no way for a passenger to know this as the train felt ready for departure. But if XC had delayed the local, then that would have cost them, best just to delay their own.

 

[DarloRich]

For all manner of reason most of which will not be visible to someone sat on the train. The signalers have a better view of the overall picture and should be left to get on with it.

PS: It could also have just been a a mistake!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It could be any reason though, I know of an instance where a train ran 15-17 mins early after a colleague informed me the cover driver who had to drive it would have ran out of driving hours otherwise. A driver manager took over at the first opportunity and the train ran on time afterwards. It might seem simple, but no doubt this had knock-on effects to other trains by not respecting the traced path/timings.

I have seen near enough exactly that for East Croydon-Clapham Jn (annoying, as I obviously noticed it only after it had gone and could have left work a little early to get to it if say they'd Tweeted they were going to do it), though I assumed it was to get it out of the way as there was a track/signalling issue which meant it was causing an obstruction if it had sat at East Croydon to booked time. It waited at Clapham Jn and departed on time from there.

 

[cuccir]

Had the same with an LNER HST between Newcastle and York yesterday. The HST was due out at 11:59, and a TPE service was due out at 12:03. The HST was a few minutes late so the TPE service left at 12:03 as scheduled, and the HST left at 12:05, stuck behind the 100 mph stopping 185 all the way to York, which delayed it even further. Decisions like that do puzzle me, surely it would have been better to hold the TPE service by a couple of minutes at Newcastle to let the LNER service go first?

Regarding the Newcastle example, given the congested nature and different stopping patterns of Newcastle - York, I'd imagine there will be a 'signalling regulation statement' regarding the latest possible time an LNER can arrive at Newcastle, before the TPE is allowed to depart first...

I commute into Newcastle, and I've noticed that this has changed since the last timetable change in May. Prior to that, TPE trains were regularly held for late running LNER (well Virgin East Coast I suppose) services, and this particularly applied to the trains in that timeslot - there's usually a VTEC/LNER leaving at xx:55-59 and a TPE at xx:00-05. The TPE would be held even if the VTEC service was up to around 10 minutes late - it wasn't unknown to be held on the TPE while the VTEC train was a good 5 minutes away from Newcastle. This changed however in May and now they don't seem to be held at all, even if the LNER service is at the platform and loading passengers.

 

[43094]

Currently, they're only held if the LNER is in by a specific time - if it's after that time, the TPE will go first, even.if both are in the station at the same time.

 

[Tomnick]

Given the incredibly fragile state of TPE’s current timetable, I’m not surprised that they’re suddelnly being given more priority over late runners. Six or seven minutes late away from Newcastle will probably mean yet another farce in Manchester if it doesn’t recover any delay by then.

 

[JN114]

There are all kinds of policies and regulation statements that could be in play.

The biggest misnomer is that the first digit of a trains headcode conveys some kind of priority system - it doesn’t. It’s just an indication of the characteristics of the train the signaller should expect.

The first line of regulation decision making is the signaller. They’re generally expected to minimise overall delay within their area; in line with any standing policies or regulation statements.

Control are the next line of regulation decision making. Control’s primary remit is to maximise PPM and minimise cancellations. There are 2 parts - the TOC side and the NR side. NR are generally looking at the bigger picture - who goes first in a TOC vs TOC/FOC scenario for example - while TOC service controllers can only excercise control over their own services; and thus are looking at alterations to their own services to prevent the spread of an incident. At no point in the chain is Delay Repay or any similar Customer Compensation a factor whatsoever.

The proverbial picture therefore gets very big, very quickly. I’ll be first to admit that before I joined control I used to - quite vocally - question their actions when things didn’t go the way I thought they should. And I made myself look like a right tit in the eyes of my future manager(s) for it. It was astounding to me when I then joined control - first on the info side but now as a service controller - just how much gets factored in to such decision making - impact on other services around and so on.

And at the end of the day those front line staff and back office staff enacting that regulation are human. Sometimes they get it wrong. Sometimes we fail to pass on to signallers that critical bit of info that would trigger them to regulate differently. Sometimes signallers forget who goes first on such and such policy.

 

[SSp]

Quite apt topic with the last hour at York..!

 

[SoccerHQ]

Funnily enough I was at New Street the exact same time yesterday as the OP and on a different train.

11.15 to Edinburgh, on time and waiting on the platform. Was announced when I got on at 10 past that the train would be imminently ready for departure.

Problem was the 11.08 Wolves stopper was 5 minutes late and eventually didn't set off until quarter past. Was amazed it went off ahead of the Virgin one. I could understand if it was an LM or Wales one where there's only one stop before Wolves but this was the one stopping at all stations and also has dwelling time when it does get into Wolves.

All round a strange one I think, luckily I was only going to Sandwell and Dudley so only had a short experience of the crawl along Smethwick.

 

[Mugby]

I've experienced the exact situation which the Op describes and the stopper to Nottingham was routed via Whitacre Junction to Kingsbury to allow the fast service to overtake it.

I thought it was an excellent bit of regulating, one wonders why it can't be standard practice.