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How could unsatisfactory branch shuttles be improved?

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Helsby - Ellesmere Port.

Not sure what could be done with it. It's effectively a parliamentary service. Only 18 passengers used Ince & Elton in 2021.
Without wishing to open a can of worms that covers many other lines, in addition to the sparse service, there are frequent cancellations which also makes the Helsby - Ellesmere Port line so unattractive. From personal experience, its not all that unusual for a whole day's trains to be caped.
 

D6975

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I don’t think that counts as pretty much every service leaves the branch and goes elsewhere (to Colne)
(with ref to Blackpool S)

This hasn't been the case for quite some time. All services from BPS run to Preston only, no through trains to Colne any more.
I would however agree that it isn't really a shuttle as some of the intermediate stations are quite busy, Lytham in particular.
 

Bevan Price

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Helsby - Ellesmere Port.

Not sure what could be done with it. It's effectively a parliamentary service. Only 18 passengers used Ince & Elton in 2021.
The population around Ince & Elton has been growing a bit in recent years, but the service is so lousy that it will remain totally unattractive.
 

Ken H

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The population around Ince & Elton has been growing a bit in recent years, but the service is so lousy that it will remain totally unattractive.
So they won't improve the service because they say there is no demand. Are the railway any good at identifying latent demand?
 

142blue

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In what respect is it 'unsatisfactory'? It's amazingly frequent together with being cheap to operate and relying on local staffing.

What's not to like (except, possibly, a 'number of wheels' issue)?
It's the most uncomfortable rail journey on that rattler
 

tbtc

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So they won't improve the service because they say there is no demand. Are the railway any good at identifying latent demand?

The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby (other than it not being a dead end branch, for the purposes of this thread) is that there's no obvious service to run on the line - it's a line through a refinery with very little population nearby.

If you think of a circle on the map, you have Liverpool as the top point, the main attraction, the place with the most demand for passengers.

Going anti-clockwise down the western side you have the busy Birkenhead and then passenger demand tapering away a bit as you reach Ellesmere Port

Going clockwise down the eastern side you have Liverpool South Parkway (which serves a chunk of suburban Liverpool) and then the town of Runcorn

There's clearly a lot of demand from both sides of the circle to get into/out of Liverpool, understandable

But what do you about the bottom of the circle? Is there much demand to get from Runcorn to Ellesmere Port/ Birkenhead?

You could run through trains from Manchester to Ellesmere Port/ Birkenhead, but then any path out of Manchester is one that could be used for a Chester (and Wales) service

You could extend the Merseyrail services through to Helsby, but that requires either electrifying through an oil terminal or (more likely) battery 777s...but then are you terminating them at Helsby when Helsby isn't much of a destination but Runcorn is only five miles further along the line? And then, if you're going to Runcorn then why not cross the river again and head back towards Lime Street?

I'm also aware that received wisdom on here is that "people prefer direct journeys", so any service that's just terminating at Helsby would be unattractive to people wanting to head to Manchester (and any service from the east that terminates at Ellesmere Port would be unattractive to people heading to the Wirral peninsula), so

Also, Hooton to Chester is about fifteen minutes (two trains per hour), Chester to Helsby is ten minutes (four trains per hour), so how much faster would an infrequent service via Stanlow have to be for any Manchester - Wirral journeys?

Or, to put it another way, now that there are services via the Halton chord, there's nowhere significant without a train to the nearest big city (Liverpool), any Manchester service would either mean a reduction for other journeys (e.g. cutting the Manchester service to Chester)... I'm not sure what problem people are trying to solve
 

nw12398

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The noisy diesel trains on the Exmouth - Paignton shuttle make this service very unsatisfactory. Vibration from the motors under each carriage make every journey something to be endured rather than enjoyed
Seems like a stretch to call it a shuttle service, though - It consists of two branch lines and a main line section (plus a bit of the WoE line) with a lot of stops!
 

Kite159

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Another mention of the Greenford Branch as there are some rubbish connections at West Ealing.

The driver must get bored during the layover time at West Ealing when it's only hourly.
 
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The problem with Ellesmere Port - Helsby (other than it not being a dead end branch, for the purposes of this thread) is that there's no obvious service to run on the line - it's a line through a refinery with very little population nearby.
There are still people who works at said refinery (not to mention a University campus on what used to be the research labs). Many more live in the extensive local housing, built to accommodate a large industrial workforce but now working elsewhere (generally in a Wirral or Chester direction). As others have pointed out, an unreliable, infrequent service which almost always means a change (at Ellesmere Port, onto half-hourly service from there) doesn't encourage usage.

You could extend the Merseyrail services through to Helsby, but that requires either electrifying through an oil terminal or (more likely) battery 777s...but then are you terminating them at Helsby when Helsby isn't much of a destination but Runcorn is only five miles further along the line? And then, if you're going to Runcorn then why not cross the river again and head back towards Lime Street?
I think Helsby is a red herring in this case (although the option to change onto Manchester / Leeds trains heading East remains). It's having a through service to Birkenhead / Liverpool and a one-change (rather than two-change) journey to Chester which would be more attractive.
I'm also aware that received wisdom on here is that "people prefer direct journeys", so any service that's just terminating at Helsby would be unattractive to people wanting to head to Manchester (and any service from the east that terminates at Ellesmere Port would be unattractive to people heading to the Wirral peninsula), so

Also, Hooton to Chester is about fifteen minutes (two trains per hour), Chester to Helsby is ten minutes (four trains per hour), so how much faster would an infrequent service via Stanlow have to be for any Manchester - Wirral journeys?

Or, to put it another way, now that there are services via the Halton chord, there's nowhere significant without a train to the nearest big city (Liverpool), any Manchester service would either mean a reduction for other journeys (e.g. cutting the Manchester service to Chester)... I'm not sure what problem people are trying to solve
Put bluntly (from living and working not so far away), the East side of Ellesmere Port, and the commuter areas of Ince/Elton, is one of those places where no-one who can help it travels by train, because there aren't reliable trains to anywhere they would want to go (and connections are certainly not held!).
Before the Ellesmere Port electrification, trains used (so I am told) to run in a circle from Chester to Chester via Helsby, Ellesmere Port and Hooton, which gave Chester (a significant employment centre in it's own right) something of a suburban rail network (which ought to be attractive given the traffic problems, parking costs and cost of housing in Chester). Pre-pandemic the morning rush hour services into Chester were standing room only from Chester, so when you have frequent enough trains, they are used. A good crowd used to change at Hooton off the Ellesmere Port line, despite a 15 minute connection.

That frequency (4 tph) doesn't exist from any other direction into Chester now. Reinstating the Chester Triangle services could provide a regular suburban service on the north-east side of Chester and an alternative link to Ellesmere Port's population (where costs are very much lower).
 

ess

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The Slough to Windsor shuttle should really be mentioned due to its poor timetable. With journey times of 6 minutes, having most of the day departures with 20 minutes between trains and then 40 minutes between trains is really poor.
 

nw1

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Aren’t the GEML timetable plans expected to see the Witham-Braintree revert predominately to a branch shuttle? Will be far more sensible & reliable if it does.

I don't know the area too well, but isn't Braintree a substantially sized place? Can't see it going down too well losing its direct train to London. As long ago as 1981 (source: ABC timetable, timetableworld.com) it had a regular hourly direct train to London though ISTR one or two years in the mid 80s when it lost it.

In the same area, likewise would Sudbury work better if it became an extended shuttle into Colchester, which is presumably the 'go to' shopping destination in the area? Likewise extend St Ives to Penzance, for similar reasons. All of these are with the disclaimer that I am no expert in the area, but they strike me as shuttles which 'could' extend a short way along the mainline to terminate at the local large town, but don't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

If they are 'well used' do they meet the parameters of this thread which is about "unsatisfactory" shuttles? Sometimes a branch line is best served by a self contained shuttle with passengers making an easy connection, i.e. not too long a wait and provision of lifts etc so that all passengers can access the connection.

I would say Reading-Basingstoke is fine as it is, as it links large towns and I'd imagine Reading is as big a commuter destination as London for the intermediate villages.

An 'unsatisfactory' shuttle in general, IMO, is one which terminates at the junction station on the main line, which is in a small village, when there is a large town just down the main line around 5 miles or so away.
 

dk1

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I don't know the area too well, but isn't Braintree a substantially sized place? Can't see it going down too well losing its direct train to London. As long ago as 1981 (source: ABC timetable, timetableworld.com) it had a regular hourly direct train to London though ISTR one or two years in the mid 80s when it lost it.

In the same area, likewise would Sudbury work better if it became an extended shuttle into Colchester, which is presumably the 'go to' shopping destination in the area? Likewise extend St Ives to Penzance, for similar reasons. All of these are with the disclaimer that I am no expert in the area, but they strike me as shuttles which 'could' extend a short way along the mainline to terminate at the local large town, but don't.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==
There was a rather ill thought out franchise commitment to extend Sudbury services to Colchester but was hastily dropped. The foot crossing at the end of the platform would not lend itself to regular use & NR would not allow it on safety grounds. It also would be a performance risk with extra needless crossing of the GEML.

The layout at Witham is very restricted for the Braintree branch & cannot be changed. Any delays on the mainline or single line can cause problems with the down Braintree Service having nowhere to go. It lends itself far better to shuttle working.
 

nw1

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Why is it unsatisfactory though? Also it was already mentioned?

The key thing with Lymington I think is to ensure it connects to London trains at Brockenhurst. I've noticed in some timetables/days of the week it did this well, and in others it didn't.

Brockenhurst is far enough away from Southampton to make terminating there reasonable, rather than extending along the main line.
 
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JBuchananGB

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I don't think Manningtree to Harwich Town has been mentioned. Perhaps it is considered to be a satisfactory shuttle, but with trains terminating at Manningtree which is essentially the middle of nowhere (unless you are visiting Constable country) it could meet the criteria.
 

bavvo

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An 'unsatisfactory' shuttle in general, IMO, is one which terminates at the junction station on the main line, which is in a small village, when there is a large town just down the main line around 5 miles or so away.
100% agree. Hence why I would like to see the Henley - Twyford service extended to Reading.
 

nw1

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I don't think Manningtree to Harwich Town has been mentioned. Perhaps it is considered to be a satisfactory shuttle, but with trains terminating at Manningtree which is essentially the middle of nowhere (unless you are visiting Constable country) it could meet the criteria.

Wasn't this another one which used to originate somewhere else (Colchester? Ipswich?)
 

GordonT

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The Slough to Windsor shuttle should really be mentioned due to its poor timetable. With journey times of 6 minutes, having most of the day departures with 20 minutes between trains and then 40 minutes between trains is really poor.
Purely a personal preference but for train and other modes of transport I prefer a 30ms. frequency rather than an alternating 20ms./40ms. frequency, an hourly frequency rather than a 45ms (or worse still a 40ms) frequency and a two-hourly frequency rather than a 90ms. frequency. Even though there are fewer physical journeys users will have a greater chance of knowing when they are. I particularly dislike "irregular" timetables where there are quite a few journeys but few if any forming any pattern.
 

nw1

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100% agree. Hence why I would like to see the Henley - Twyford service extended to Reading.

Yes, that would make sense paths allowing.

I think the particularly unsatisfactory cases are where the junction station is not called at by the prime 'class 1' services, which would apply here and also for the Sudbury and Harwich branches. On the other hand Brockenhurst to Lymington, as well as being some distance from a large town, originates from a mainline station where (almost) everything stops.
 

dk1

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Wasn't this another one which used to originate somewhere else (Colchester? Ipswich?)
It was only ever really a Manningtree-Harwich Town shuttle with occasional through workings to Colchester (along with Boat trains from Parkeston Quay to Liverpool St of course). When the line was electrified in 1985 an hourly through Harwich Town to Liverpool St was soon started but only lasted a few years. It then in the mid-90s became a class 312 operated Harwich Town-Ipswich via Manningtree again running hourly. There is quite a bit of demand for Ipswich from the branch. After privatisation GE decided it was far more lucrative to operate the Ipswich paths as another through service to London competing with Anglia Railways for this traffic & the Harwich Towns once again became predominantly a shuttle again which continues to this day.
 

LAX54

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It will certainly be more reliable in the morning peak. One of the busiest services suffers from the increased frequency & severe infrastructure issues & regularly doesn’t make it up the branch at all.
Of course back in the day, there was also the Norwich to Liverpool Street "Inter-City Shuttle" :)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

It was only ever really a Manningtree-Harwich Town shuttle with occasional through workings to Colchester (along with Boat trains from Parkeston Quay to Liverpool St of course). When the line was electrified in 1985 an hourly through Harwich Town to Liverpool St was soon started but only lasted a few years. It then in the mid-90s became a class 312 operated Harwich Town-Ipswich via Manningtree again running hourly. There is quite a bit of demand for Ipswich from the branch. After privatisation GE decided it was far more lucrative to operate the Ipswich paths as another through service to London competing with Anglia Railways for this traffic & the Harwich Towns once again became predominantly a shuttle again which continues to this day.
Harwich to Ipswich: we had a few Mexican stand offs at Manningtree too when we ran those ! (Good job we had the L/E 1247's crossover !)
 

dk1

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Of course back in the day, there was also the Norwich to Liverpool Street "Inter-City Shuttle" :)
Haha yes along with Birmingham-Euston too. Those platform signs lasted for years after at Colchester.
 

nw12398

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The key thing with Lymington I think is to ensure it connects to London trains at Brockenhurst. I've noticed in some timetables/days of the week it did this well, and in others it didn't.

Brockenhurst is far enough away from Southampton to make terminating there reasonable, rather than extending along the main line.
In the weekdays there are 3 tph between Bournemouth and Winchester, which I suspect would cover most commuters from Lymington/Yarmouth. And 2 tph from Brockenhurst to Waterloo and 2 tph between Brockenhurst and Lymington. Plus the branch line is electrified, uses up-to-date rolling stock, and goes to useful locations. I suspect a lot of students in Lymington go to Brockenhurst College, so the junction station is an important destination in itself too!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In the same area, likewise would Sudbury work better if it became an extended shuttle into Colchester, which is presumably the 'go to' shopping destination in the area? Likewise extend St Ives to Penzance, for similar reasons. All of these are with the disclaimer that I am no expert in the area, but they strike me as shuttles which 'could' extend a short way along the mainline to terminate at the local large town, but don't.
I don't think the current 2tph frequency would be feasible with this as standard, and a big proportion of passengers are tourists who either start their train journey at the St. Erth P&R, or somewhere much further east in which St. Erth also becomes more convenient. But I suppose that locals might prefer 1tph but extending to Penzance in the winter, when demand is lower and waiting outside at a station is less desirable. In any case the passenger figures speak for themselves!
 
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Andyjs247

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I think the particularly unsatisfactory cases are where the junction station is not called at by the prime 'class 1' services, which would apply here and also for the Sudbury and Harwich branches. On the other hand Brockenhurst to Lymington, as well as being some distance from a large town, originates from a mainline station where (almost) everything stops.
Being somewhat controversial Marylebone to Oxford is an unsatisfactory shuttle due to Chiltern’s regular practice of turning trains short at Oxford Parkway or even Bicester Village. I understand why it happens but Oxford is a major destination on its own.

GWR would never consider turning their equivalent Paddington to Oxford services short. The Didcot-Oxford shuttle is unsatisfactory too considering the service that existed before electrification. Local journeys such as Culham to Reading or Twyford to Oxford now require a change at Didcot when they were previously direct.
 

Acton1991

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The Slough to Windsor shuttle should really be mentioned due to its poor timetable. With journey times of 6 minutes, having most of the day departures with 20 minutes between trains and then 40 minutes between trains is really poor.
Totally agree with this. They should be turned around and send straight back out again!
 

Old Yard Dog

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There are still people who works at said refinery (not to mention a University campus on what used to be the research labs). Many more live in the extensive local housing, built to accommodate a large industrial workforce but now working elsewhere (generally in a Wirral or Chester direction). As others have pointed out, an unreliable, infrequent service which almost always means a change (at Ellesmere Port, onto half-hourly service from there) doesn't encourage usage.


I think Helsby is a red herring in this case (although the option to change onto Manchester / Leeds trains heading East remains). It's having a through service to Birkenhead / Liverpool and a one-change (rather than two-change) journey to Chester which would be more attractive.

Put bluntly (from living and working not so far away), the East side of Ellesmere Port, and the commuter areas of Ince/Elton, is one of those places where no-one who can help it travels by train, because there aren't reliable trains to anywhere they would want to go (and connections are certainly not held!).
Before the Ellesmere Port electrification, trains used (so I am told) to run in a circle from Chester to Chester via Helsby, Ellesmere Port and Hooton, which gave Chester (a significant employment centre in it's own right) something of a suburban rail network (which ought to be attractive given the traffic problems, parking costs and cost of housing in Chester). Pre-pandemic the morning rush hour services into Chester were standing room only from Chester, so when you have frequent enough trains, they are used. A good crowd used to change at Hooton off the Ellesmere Port line, despite a 15 minute connection.

That frequency (4 tph) doesn't exist from any other direction into Chester now. Reinstating the Chester Triangle services could provide a regular suburban service on the north-east side of Chester and an alternative link to Ellesmere Port's population (where costs are very much lower).

Trains never ran in a Chester - Hooton - Helsby - Chester circle.

When I first moved to Ellesmere Port in 1980, there was an hourly Hooton - Helsby DMU which stopped about 6 pm. There were a couple of extra Rock Ferry - Stanlow & Thornton workings for people working at the refinery. There was even a tiny ticket office at Stanlow & Thornton station.

In the early to mid 1980's (I think), the Hooton - Helsby service was increased to a 30 min service and ran till 11 pm at night. It thus provided very useful connections to Manchester services at Helsby, although these were never properly timetabled nor held.

When the Wirral Line electrification was extended from Rock Ferry to Hooton, BR ran half-hourly Chester - Hooton - Helsby trains which terminated at Helsby.

When electrification was extended to Chester, I think the Hooton - Helsby service became an hourly Hooton - Helsby - Warrington BQ - Liverpool LS service (I'm not 100% sure exactly when extension to Warrington & Liverpool started).

When electrification was subsequently extended to Ellesmere Port, the DMUs terminated at Ellesmere Port and the frequency dropped to two hourly. The service subsequently got worse and is now down to two short workings a day leaving at 0633 and 1910, which are no use to anybody.

Recently, for a few months, the two services ran through to Manchester with one extending to Leeds via Bradford (a franchise requirement) but these were soon diverted to Chester to free up paths as part of the Manchester decongestion exercise.

Bus services between Ellesmere Port and Helsby have improved over the years. The no 2 now runs hourly SuX Chester - Ellesmere Port - Cheshire Oaks - Elton - Helsby - Frodsham - Runcorn (but not evenings or Sundays).
 

tbtc

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There are still people who works at said refinery (not to mention a University campus on what used to be the research labs). Many more live in the extensive local housing, built to accommodate a large industrial workforce but now working elsewhere (generally in a Wirral or Chester direction). As others have pointed out, an unreliable, infrequent service which almost always means a change (at Ellesmere Port, onto half-hourly service from there) doesn't encourage usage.


I think Helsby is a red herring in this case (although the option to change onto Manchester / Leeds trains heading East remains). It's having a through service to Birkenhead / Liverpool and a one-change (rather than two-change) journey to Chester which would be more attractive.

Put bluntly (from living and working not so far away), the East side of Ellesmere Port, and the commuter areas of Ince/Elton, is one of those places where no-one who can help it travels by train, because there aren't reliable trains to anywhere they would want to go (and connections are certainly not held!).
Before the Ellesmere Port electrification, trains used (so I am told) to run in a circle from Chester to Chester via Helsby, Ellesmere Port and Hooton, which gave Chester (a significant employment centre in it's own right) something of a suburban rail network (which ought to be attractive given the traffic problems, parking costs and cost of housing in Chester). Pre-pandemic the morning rush hour services into Chester were standing room only from Chester, so when you have frequent enough trains, they are used. A good crowd used to change at Hooton off the Ellesmere Port line, despite a 15 minute connection.

That frequency (4 tph) doesn't exist from any other direction into Chester now. Reinstating the Chester Triangle services could provide a regular suburban service on the north-east side of Chester and an alternative link to Ellesmere Port's population (where costs are very much lower).

Interesting points

I appreciate that there's a chicken/egg situation on a number of lines - passengers won't use an infrequent service but the railway won't throw extra resources at a lightly used line - but there are always going to be other places that we can use any additional resources (e.g. is a regular Chester - Runcorn - Liverpool service more important than extending all Merseyrail services beyond Ellesmere Port to Helsby?)

If we were starting from scratch then I could certainly see the desirability of Ellesmere Port - Chester services (and maybe also somehow serving Cheshire Oaks/ Zoo) - Ellesmere Port is frustratingly close to Chester and suitably different (in terms of there being clear reasons to leave one to live/ work/ shop in the other) but not a competitive journey by rail, but I don't know how to solve that (without spending huge money) - wasn't aware of any through trains from Ellesmere Port to Chester though (historically)

(I'm not against improving things in the area, it's just hard to see what one simple flow the railway should focus on, given all of the different small markets that could be improved, compared to the simple services that exist on most of the lines in the area)

The Slough to Windsor shuttle should really be mentioned due to its poor timetable. With journey times of 6 minutes, having most of the day departures with 20 minutes between trains and then 40 minutes between trains is really poor.

What else do you do with it though?

If we are guaranteeing connections (and paying compensation if we delay passengers, which could be expensive if you are talking InterCity journeys) then I'd feel "nervous" at running trains every fifteen minutes - it's what Sir Humphry would call "brave" - a twenty minute frequency means longer layovers but reliable rather than just having a minute to turnaround at one end

There's also the issue that, this is a branch line where there will be some people heading east and heading west at Slough, so it's not like I'd only focus connections in one direction (having a twenty minute service connecting into the GWML that is mainly based on half hourly services isn't perfect, but then you're dealing with half a dozen services per hour in each direction on the main line (from what I can remember of the pre-Covid situation), so passengers shouldn't be waiting long

I would say Reading-Basingstoke is fine as it is, as it links large towns and I'd imagine Reading is as big a commuter destination as London for the intermediate villages.

An 'unsatisfactory' shuttle in general, IMO, is one which terminates at the junction station on the main line, which is in a small village, when there is a large town just down the main line around 5 miles or so away.

Agreed - Reading to Basingstoke makes perfect sense as an independent service, it links two decent sized places, it doesn't feel at all "artificial", I'd suspect that the majority of passengers at both end stations would be heading into Reading/Basingstoke (rather than connecting to other train services, obviously some people will be connecting)
 

Djgr

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Trains never ran in a Chester - Hooton - Helsby - Chester circle.

When I first moved to Ellesmere Port in 1980, there was an hourly Hooton - Helsby DMU which stopped about 6 pm. There were a couple of extra Rock Ferry - Stanlow & Thornton workings for people working at the refinery. There was even a tiny ticket office at Stanlow & Thornton station.

In the early to mid 1980's (I think), the Hooton - Helsby service was increased to a 30 min service and ran till 11 pm at night. It thus provided very useful connections to Manchester services at Helsby, although these were never properly timetabled nor held.

When the Wirral Line electrification was extended from Rock Ferry to Hooton, BR ran half-hourly Chester - Hooton - Helsby trains which terminated at Helsby.

When electrification was extended to Chester, I think the Hooton - Helsby service became an hourly Hooton - Helsby - Warrington BQ - Liverpool LS service (I'm not 100% sure exactly when extension to Warrington & Liverpool started).

When electrification was subsequently extended to Ellesmere Port, the DMUs terminated at Ellesmere Port and the frequency dropped to two hourly. The service subsequently got worse and is now down to two short workings a day leaving at 0633 and 1910, which are no use to anybody.

Recently, for a few months, the two services ran through to Manchester with one extending to Leeds via Bradford (a franchise requirement) but these were soon diverted to Chester to free up paths as part of the Manchester decongestion exercise.

Bus services between Ellesmere Port and Helsby have improved over the years. The no 2 now runs hourly SuX Chester - Ellesmere Port - Cheshire Oaks - Elton - Helsby - Frodsham - Runcorn (but not evenings or Sundays).
Living locally and based on my experience, I would say that there is probably a demand for a fast commuter service from Ellesmere Port to Manchester.

There are many people who live on the Wirral coast and work in Manchester. The M56 is rammed. Helsby car park (following Railtrack sell-offs) is rammed but Ellesmere Port is just off the M53 and appears to offer the potential as a parkway station.
 
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