How could the Southeastern network be improved?

[MPW]

As a commuter on orpington line I often fantasise about the South london metroisation and have read that report many times! Though the main interventions for the cst/chx lines don't necessarily need tfl takeover: digital signalling out to lewisham/Greenwich and new trains. In fact the new trains are already being investigated.

It feels frustrating as a southeastern customer each time there is engineering works for existing signalling. Just change to digital already, its clearly needed.

As others have mentioned i would be happy to change trains if it meant higher frequency and reliability, but so far that isn't the case.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Mar 2023 ==

I also wish modal shift was considered as a more major priority in outer london, or even occasionally mentioned in the press. Most of the disruption is faced by us commuters so that seems to get most of the attention (and fair enough!) but there is of course no vocalisation of poor service by those who just choose to drive instead.

Referring back to the metroisation report, this could be helped by more reliable and frequent connections. Modal shift should be included as a financial incentive for whoever finally takes over for southeastern.

 

[yorksrob]

How would I improve South Eastern ?

I'd alleviate crowding on HS1 by introducing a fast Dover/Margate to Charing Cross, joining at Ashford and going non-stop Tonbridge-London Bridge-Waterloo E-Charing Cross.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

As a commuter on orpington line I often fantasise about the South london metroisation and have read that report many times! Though the main interventions for the cst/chx lines don't necessarily need tfl takeover: digital signalling out to lewisham/Greenwich and new trains. In fact the new trains are already being investigated.

It feels frustrating as a southeastern customer each time there is engineering works for existing signalling. Just change to digital already, its clearly needed.

The existing signalling can deliver good service frequency but if the operator and infrastructure owner has no faith in the reliability of the assets it wont exploit that capability

 

[cle]

If the Bakerloo ever got to Hayes, that would free up 4tph out of London Bridge.

I would always go for metro-isation too. So adding those frequencies to the Dartford routes or the Orpington slow, if possible. But of course, 2tph are fast line/Ladywell paths so perhaps that doesn't quite work 'verbatim'.

And try to standardize those routes into singular termini, only if in exchange frequency could be increased. Gobble up Rainham too, even if it doesn't go that far. The Greenwich line should have 6tph minimum (and even), plus 2tph from Blackheath.

The new London Bridge is meant for better interchanging, and a mentality of 'take the first train and change', per Earls Court. Lewisham too - it's pretty bad for it today, but one might assume that Bakerloo extension - which for probably a good stint would terminate at Lewisham - might bring additional NR station works to increase circulation and access capacity between lines, and from NR to DLR/tube.

 

[FR510]

There are many issues to consider in order to separate metro and mainline completely. Not insurmountable, but would it create value for money or increase operating costs?

A number of SE driver depots have a mixture of mainline and metro work. Some 465 stock operate both types of services on the same stock diagrams.

2 of SEs maintenance depots (Gillingham and Ramsgate) are outside the metro area yet they help maintain the metro fleet along with Slade Green.

And how far would TFL work outside of London. Sevenoaks? Gravesend?

All this would have to be considered and then the 2 operations un twined somehow.

A real headache for someone!!

 

[43066]

Clean up the networkers and the 376s, reverse some of the recent timetabling cuts!

Overall it’s pretty good on the whole, and the new London Bridge is excellent. The 707s are a high point.

It feels frustrating as a southeastern customer each time there is engineering works for existing signalling. Just change to digital already, its clearly needed.

A lot of the recent engineering hasn’t been signalling per se it’s been improving junctions etc. which would still have been needed despite digital signalling. It’s a long way away in this part of the world!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2023 ==

How would I improve South Eastern ?

I'd alleviate crowding on HS1 by introducing a fast Dover/Margate to Charing Cross, joining at Ashford and going non-stop Tonbridge-London Bridge-Waterloo E-Charing Cross.

Ah yes the useful services that mysteriously vanished around the time of the Olympics! I think (might be wrong) they also called at Sevenoaks?

 

[yorksrob]

Clean up the networkers and the 376s, reverse some of the recent timetabling cuts!

Overall it’s pretty good on the whole, and the new London Bridge is excellent. The 707s are a high point.



A lot of the recent engineering hasn’t been signalling per se it’s been improving junctions etc. which would still have been needed despite digital signalling. It’s a long way away in this part of the world!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 9 Mar 2023 ==



Ah yes the useful services that mysteriously vanished around the time of the Olympics! I think (might be wrong) they also called at Sevenoaks?

The semi-fasts all did in the olden days.

 

[Trainlog]

to be fair, for my part of Kent, Southeastern has been alright as far as things are concerned. i wouldn't call them the worst operators on the network but suffice to say travelling around the network Southeast map there has certainly been a lot better service providers.

For the positive things they have done recently

1. Medway Valley line timetable change has been great
2. The lack of Chargers has been addressed
3. There has been an attempt to advertise destinations along the line, granted they aren't pieces of Art but its a step in the right direction.

Outside of the Chaos of the timetable table change. I think the main thing if Southeastern was to improve on, in my opinion, is to bring back their one day Kent rover and actually put a fair bit of promotion into it. At the moment only the 3 day edition exists at £45 which though is good, its the only choice they have available atm.

As Southeastern does put a lot of effort into advertising its Key card ticket, i reckon it would be brilliant that if they bring back the 1 day pass that they do promote it as a way of travelling around Kent without being limited to one destination in the same way the London zones 1-6 ticket works. When it comes to rover tickets, I have really enjoyed the Southern railway equivalent, i just think that Southeastern could work on bringing it back and making it well known it exits.

 

[JonathanH]

Outside of the Chaos of the timetable table change. I think the main thing if Southeastern was to improve on, in my opinion, is to bring back their one day Kent rover and actually put a fair bit of promotion into it. At the moment only the 3 day edition exists at £45 which though is good, its the only choice they have available atm.

I think I would argue that a three day rover at £45 is the best there is going to be. A one day version would need to be about £30, eg as Swanley to Folkestone is just over £30, so as not to cannibalise revenue, where customers currently buy off-peak day returns.

 

[Trainlog]

I think I would argue that a three day rover at £45 is the best there is going to be. A one day version would need to be about £30, eg as Swanley to Folkestone is just over £30, so as not to cannibalise revenue, where customers currently buy off-peak day returns.

I dont think even the £30 part isn't nessary as Southern has offered their one for £20 non railcard. Have done it a few times and the fact that you can get on and off and go as far west as Southampton, North as Milton Keynes and as East as Ashford intl for that price. (though current rate is £23, i last used it in 2021).

I can get the idea of a full Southeastern network ticket being about £35 if it meant that London, Hs1 in full, and the Hastings line was available too for the day. I just think that Southeastern should give it go at promoting their current 3 day Kent rover one and seeing what comes of it, and if its successful then working on a day ticket.

Kent Rover | Southeastern Railway

Enjoy three consecutive days of unlimited off-peak train travel

www.southeasternrailway.co.uk

Buy DaySave Train Ticket | DaySave Train Ticket | Southern Railway

Get unlimited Off-Peak travel on Southern services with DaySave

www.southernrailway.com

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed. Kent Coast service prices have already been jacked up to pay for HS1. £45 quid for a rover missing out London would be extortionate.

 

[Andrew Tiffin]

Transferring the Southeastern metro services to Transport for London is a better option because Transport for London runs a good frequency service with London Overground since they took over Silverlink metro services in 2007 and West Anglia metro services in 2015

 

[JonathanH]

Transferring the Southeastern metro services to Transport for London is a better option because Transport for London runs a good frequency service with London Overground since they took over Silverlink metro services in 2007 and West Anglia metro services in 2015

That doesn't mean they would be able to do the same with Southeastern Metro. There is an in-built conflict with longer distance services, and running more trains would need more funding.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

That doesn't mean they would be able to do the same with Southeastern Metro. There is an in-built conflict with longer distance services, and running more trains would need more funding.

Elizabeth Line has same constraints as well as freight but the industry has collectively worked together to deliver that improved service. Where there is a will there is a way but as we know there will be no extra cash for it so aint going to happen.

 

[cle]

What have they done frequency-wise with West Anglia? Other than the STAR/Meridian water 4tph? Lea Bridge preceded them.

Nothing for the Enfield route really.

Crossrail was supposed to free up paths too, nothing has really increased in the way of London Overground though.

 

[Horizon22]

What have they done frequency-wise with West Anglia? Other than the STAR/Meridian water 4tph? Lea Bridge preceded them.

Nothing for the Enfield route really.

Crossrail was supposed to free up paths too, nothing has really increased in the way of London Overground though.

Completely unconnected and unrelated to Crossrail and was never going to free up paths on the Overground. Probably just platform capacity at Paddington (needed) and Liverpool St (less urgent).

Elizabeth Line has same constraints as well as freight but the industry has collectively worked together to deliver that improved service. Where there is a will there is a way but as we know there will be no extra cash for it so aint going to happen.

Somewhat; the Elizabeth line took over services already running and adapted them somewhat. They were also fairly easy to separate.

There’s a lot more interworking with Southeastern and a lot of running between different routes. The easiest thing would be all Dartford routes but even then that’s running to 3 London terminals across 4 (and a bit) different lines. You’d have to simply and easily split up crew and stick depots too, which is quite an endeavour.

But as you’ve said, no money so all moot!

 

[30907]

Elizabeth Line has same constraints as well as freight but the industry has collectively worked together to deliver that improved service.

It has its own independent pair of tracks (effectively - some freight offpeak)as far as Dolphin Jn (Slough). The next timetable increase provides for 12tph West of Paddington, 6tph to Maidenhead - which is about 1/4 of the (pre-Covid) peak service through LBG.
Yes, it would be great to have that sort of infrastructure in SE London but....

 

[zwk500]

Elizabeth Line has same constraints as well as freight but the industry has collectively worked together to deliver that improved service. Where there is a will there is a way but as we know there will be no extra cash for it so aint going to happen.

The conflict with the faster services is not a particular problem, but the money to refurb, provide level access, gate and staff all the stations, and money for new trains (presumably third-rail versions of 710s) certainly isn't available.

Without those changes, any transfer of SE to TfL would be as pointless as transferring the franchise from one bidder to another.

 

[Mikey C]

The conflict with the faster services is not a particular problem, but the money to refurb, provide level access, gate and staff all the stations, and money for new trains (presumably third-rail versions of 710s) certainly isn't available.

Without those changes, any transfer of SE to TfL would be as pointless as transferring the franchise from one bidder to another.

All those things could be done by the Southeastern franchise/operator if the desire and finances were there. Other part of the London NR network have far more ticket barriers.

 

[zwk500]

All those things could be done by the Southeastern franchise/operator if the desire and finances were there. Other part of the London NR network have far more ticket barriers.

Quite so.

 

[yorksrob]

As well as the fast via Tonbridge that I mentioned earlier, I think Faversham - Dover needs to be half hourly again. Perhaps extend one to Folkestone Central for better connectivity.

 

[CFRAIL]

As well as the fast via Tonbridge that I mentioned earlier, I think Faversham - Dover needs to be half hourly again. Perhaps extend one to Folkestone Central for better connectivity.

Extending to Folkestone could work, but you'd need crew changes at Dover (or increased route knowledge).

The Faversham, Canterbury, Dover/Dover, Canterbury, Faversham service should (IMO) make a return.

 

[yorksrob]

Extending to Folkestone could work, but you'd need crew changes at Dover (or increased route knowledge).

The Faversham, Canterbury, Dover/Dover, Canterbury, Faversham service should (IMO) make a return.

The main line via Canterbury East needs to be made to work

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Clearly some good reasons not to give SE to TfL, but one thing people forget is the psychological benefits it would provide to London. I’m a Londoner and in my mind this is about providing mobility to its inhabitants rather than who’s best at providing what. People should not feel encouraged to move around parts of the metropolis that seem distant because the transport system falls out of the city’s main ecosystem. I see no different from the role of the London Underground as a people carrying machine, rather than a privately owned railway, than that of the Bexleyheath line.

That said, if TfL absolutely cannot expand the Overground, I’d prefer to see Thameslink ditch the Elephant and castle routes, maybe even the Horsham route too and serve as many SE lines if possible. Surely the arrival of XR at Farringdon will negate the loss of choice between a West End and City terminus.

 

[PGAT]

That said, if TfL absolutely cannot expand the Overground, I’d prefer to see Thameslink ditch the Elephant and castle routes, maybe even the Horsham route too and serve as many SE lines if possible. Surely the arrival of XR at Farringdon will negate the loss of choice between a West End and City terminus.

I disagree. ThamesLink running on SouthEastern routes (mainly the North Kent Line) causes conflicting movements and annoying problems when trying to timetable a route and frankly has no business being in their territory. It's why 2 of the 4tph on the Beckenham Junction route had to terminate at Bromley South instead of Orpington, and why stations like Greenwich have such an awful service.

 

[778]

If Labour win the next general election would a TFL takeover of Southeastern Metro services be much more likely to happen? I think Starmer would probably agree to it because London has a Labour Mayor. Whatever Khan wants he will get.

And if it did happen, would it mean any new trains ordered for Southeastern Metro services would have 100% longitudinal seating?

 

[Stephen42]

If Labour win the next general election would a TFL takeover of Southeastern Metro services be much more likely to happen? I think Starmer would probably agree to it because London has a Labour Mayor. Whatever Khan wants he will get.

And if it did happen, would it mean any new trains ordered for Southeastern Metro services would have 100% longitudinal seating?

I doubt it, TFL has enough to worry about at the moment without trying to expand its services. Getting a new or improved funding deal in would be much higher up the priority list. Splitting drivers and stock that currently do both metro and mainline won't be free so there isn't a cost neutral solution for both parties either.

Most of the changes that can be made easily without funding may have happened by then. A better staff presence at gatelines etc may happen after the industrial action settles down once it's clearer what happens to existing staff. Timetable changes that pay for themselves will continue to happen. The Southeastern Metro fleet may already be decided by the next election too, it's likely to have fewer seats than the Networkers but mostly transverse seating.