How could the Brigg Line service be improved; could it go to another operator?

[Starmill]

Like I said above, the Brigg line isn’t just about serving the town of Brigg. Far from it.

I'm afraid that in reality you're mistaken in this though. Kirton Lindsey generates almost no demand, the line is little use for the freight industry and it won't be being used as a diversionary route again any time soon because buses are quicker and substantially cheaper. Services to Gainsborough Central could and should resume to the 2019 timetable, but there's no reason for those to go beyond Gainsborough Central. Therefore it's only real benefit is serving Brigg.

Yes tickets from Barnetby are a total rip-off but that's true basically everywhere on TPE services across Northern England. It's not a reason to run a pointless service between Gainsborough and Cleethorpes which would be very, very little used.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Feb 2023 ==

with no proper service the line is hardly providing stiff competition at the moment.

Indeed the line has offered no service at all in over a year and yet people are still travelling between Doncaster and Cleethorpes, so it doesn't seem to be necessary.

 

[lyndhurst25]

Looking at station usage figures from when the three return trains every Saturday were running, Brigg generated around 5 passengers per train. In my experience those trains were not running almost empty, so most of the users of the Brigg line service were not boarding or alighting at Brigg. Has anyone bothered to ask the passengers on board where they are travelling between, would they use the train if it ran on weekdays, and would they still use the train via an alternative route if the service was withdrawn?

 

[Grimsby town]

The Saturday services were pretty full in the summer in my experience. That's probably the main selling point of the line currently, providing services to Cleethorpes in the summer. Parking in Cleethorpes isn't the best and the congestion on the run in from Grimsby is bad during the summer. With more pedestrianisation in Cleethorpes planned, the parking and congestion issue isn't likely to improve. I think improving the summer Saturday service and providing a Sunday service would be the best use of resources but would still be more expensive than the current situation.

Outside of that I can't see too much use that wouldn't be provided by connecting bus services and better park & ride facilties at Barnetby. I'm not convinced these would be provided. The only way closure would be politically acceptable is if it was coupled with improvements to infrastructure in the area. For example improving linespeed on Grimsby to Doncaster line or a tunnel from New Holland over to Hull. Neither would be cheap. I just don't see how removing infrastructure in a deprived area in need of leveling up will be politically acceptable even if that infrastructure is not well used.

 

[InkyScrolls]

The Saturday service is being canned, and replaced with a single round trip on weekdays.

 

[lyndhurst25]

The Saturday service is being canned, and replaced with a single round trip on weekdays.

And that is the worry. The proposed service is next to useless, giving an hour and a half in Cleethorpes. At least the current 3 trains on a Saturday allow a decent amount of time in Grimsby or Cleethoroes, and also allows day travel in a westerly direction too. It is almost like they want passenger numbers to plummet as an excuse for closing the line altogether.

 

[Killingworth]

And that is the worry. The proposed service is next to useless, giving an hour and a half in Cleethorpes. At least the current 3 trains on a Saturday allow a decent amount of time in Grimsby or Cleethoroes, and also allows day travel in a westerly direction too. It is almost like they want passenger numbers to plummet as an excuse for closing the line altogether.

But almost 2 hours in Grimsby!

The 9.56 Northern from Sheffield reaches Cleethorpes at 11.44.

The TPE 10.11 from Sheffield arrives at Cleethorpes at 11.52. With their current reliability record I'd be very tempted to go outbound on Northern.

The 13.20 Northern from Cleethorpes arrives at Sheffield at 15.11.

The 13.24 TPE arrives at Sheffield 15.09. I suspect the Northern train is more likely to arrive on time.

For users from Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Barnetby connecting to Sheffield in those hours the Northern service is also likely to be cheaper.

 

[mocko]

For users from Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Barnetby connecting to Sheffield in those hours the Northern service is also likely to be cheaper.

But with a single out-and-back service from Sheffield each day they'd still need TPE to get home, and presumably this would incur the expense of using two single tickets.

Even if it doesn't cost more, non-rail-enthusiast passengers probably won't like (or even understand!) the complexity so will stick with TPE for the whole journey.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Feb 2023 ==

Following on from that - if Northern would only do two runs a day, one earlyish morning and one in the evening, it could actually be a valuable service.

The good folk of Brigg/Kirton could easily visit Sheffield for the day, and also travellers from far away (me included, I live in London and often visit my parents in Brigg) would have a useful connection at Retford to reach all points Kirton-Cleethorpes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Following on from that - if Northern would only do two runs a day, one earlyish morning and one in the evening, it could actually be a valuable service.

This isn't a bad point. The Chathill Flyer looks like a Parliamentary, but it's reported on here that it's actually quite well used, because the two trips are properly timed for a day's work in Newcastle.

 

[mocko]

Another longstanding issue with the Brigg line is that Advance fares for it are messed up. While Northern doesn't offer Advances for the route, which is fine, it should still be available for travel as the first/last leg of Advance journeys on other operators like LNER.

As a concrete example let's try London - Brigg. If you start at Brigg - great, an Advance of £24.50 is available. But if you're going the other way, Brigg - London - nuh-uh, despite availability of Advances on the London-Retford leg and a good 25-minute connection, Northern makes you go all the way round via Barnetby then Lincoln/Doncaster on its competitor's trains and pay £52.50 for the privilege. If you insist on using that nice 25-minute Retford connection anyway it's a whopping £89.

While not an expert on the fares system I'm told by insiders that it's due to Northern's west-east fare not being combine-able with Advances from other operators. Bizarrely, for an east-west journey it's fine. Previous attempts to get it fixed just led to the TOCs blaming each other.

With Northern and LNER now both directly operated I wonder if I might get a better result, so this talk of the Brigg line has given me the energy to write to Northern again and ask that it be fixed. I won't hold my breath but if they brush it off again that's great evidence that the TOC is actively trying to deter passengers from the route.

If nothing else this illustrates how hard the Brigg line has been made for passengers to use. While the populations of Brigg/Kirton are never going to justify a high density service Northern and their predecessors never really gave it a chance.

 

[Brubulus]

Another longstanding issue with the Brigg line is that Advance fares for it are messed up. While Northern doesn't offer Advances for the route, which is fine, it should still be available for travel as the first/last leg of Advance journeys on other operators like LNER.

As a concrete example let's try London - Brigg. If you start at Brigg - great, an Advance of £24.50 is available. But if you're going the other way, Brigg - London - nuh-uh, despite availability of Advances on the London-Retford leg and a good 25-minute connection, Northern makes you go all the way round via Barnetby then Lincoln/Doncaster on its competitor's trains and pay £52.50 for the privilege. If you insist on using that nice 25-minute Retford connection anyway it's a whopping £89.

While not an expert on the fares system I'm told by insiders that it's due to Northern's west-east fare not being combine-able with Advances from other operators. Bizarrely, for an east-west journey it's fine. Previous attempts to get it fixed just led to the TOCs blaming each other.

With Northern and LNER now both directly operated I wonder if I might get a better result, so this talk of the Brigg line has given me the energy to write to Northern again and ask that it be fixed. I won't hold my breath but if they brush it off again that's great evidence that the TOC is actively trying to deter passengers from the route.

If nothing else this illustrates how hard the Brigg line has been made for passengers to use. While the populations of Brigg/Kirton are never going to justify a high density service Northern and their predecessors never really gave it a chance.

4tpd in each direction is a reasonable service for the line monday-saturday. It's not a line which can attract much more but it could load a 156 or 150 relatively well a few times a day if the times are well planned.

 

[mocko]

Personally I think even 2tpd each way would suffice if they were well-timed, and I say that as a regular user of the route. 3-4tpd might get a good loading on summer Saturdays though.

The populations of Brigg & Kirton are very used to their cars and few have jobs suitable for commuting along the route. Its passenger demographic is always going to be leisure, long-distance (e.g. me coming up from London to raid my parents biscuit tin if they fix the darn pricing!) and people from Cleethorpes/Grimsby using it as an alternative to TransPennine's awful services.

Regarding the latter, I went out on the line on Sat 14th Jan, the second week after it reopened, and the 11:47 westbound from Brigg was very well loaded. Seems a lot of ordinary (i.e. non-enthusiast) passengers had discovered it. This suggests that even a minimalist timetable could be successful if only Northern would make the effort to run reliable trains at good times, price them right and capitalise on the failings of its competitor.

 

[mocko]

I went for a ride on the line yesterday. The 11:47 was well-loaded by the time it reached Brigg (people using it from Cleethorpes/Grimsby instead of the awful TPE service?) and full to standing by Sheffield. In thirty years I've never seen the line more used than after services were restored this year. Northern might even be in danger of turning a profit on it!

While on the train I asked the guard about the Saturday -> weekday switch and he reckoned it's all been a big misunderstanding. His take was that Northern have put weekday route learners in the timetable from May but not yet published their Saturday services. People saw that and put two and two together to make five. The absence of signage at stations about any change (surely they'd be publicising it by now?) suggests he might be right.

I wonder (jokingly) if the rumor was started by Northern's marketing department. Letting people think a service is about to be closed is an excellent way to fill it.

It sounded too good to be true so I asked Northern on Twitter. They quickly responded to say:

Hi there, this is not something that is currently in the pipe line. If this changes then this will be advertised. ^ELT

Looks like a rare straight answer from a railway company, and if so it's very good news.

 

[Killingworth]

I went for a ride on the line yesterday. The 11:47 was well-loaded by the time it reached Brigg (people using it from Cleethorpes/Grimsby instead of the awful TPE service?) and full to standing by Sheffield. In thirty years I've never seen the line more used than after services were restored this year. Northern might even be in danger of turning a profit on it!

While on the train I asked the guard about the Saturday -> weekday switch and he reckoned it's all been a big misunderstanding. His take was that Northern have put weekday route learners in the timetable from May but not yet published their Saturday services. People saw that and put two and two together to make five. The absence of signage at stations about any change (surely they'd be publicising it by now?) suggests he might be right.

I wonder (jokingly) if the rumor was started by Northern's marketing department. Letting people think a service is about to be closed is an excellent way to fill it.

It sounded too good to be true so I asked Northern on Twitter. They quickly responded to say:



Looks like a rare straight answer from a railway company, and if so it's very good news.

There were Stakeholder meetings with Northern on Friday and this route got more time than almost any other! A big part of the problem is route knowedge, paths and lack of regular revenue. It was pointed out that one return service Monday-Friday with a short time at Grimsby or Cleethorpes wasn't likely to bring in lots of users. There were other points made about connections but also that the existing Saturday service was seeing cancellations. Route knowledge?

 

[mocko]

There were Stakeholder meetings with Northern on Friday and this route got more time than almost any other

@Killingworth thanks for posting that, great to hear it's getting attention.

If I was to crayon out a plausible timetable I'd keep the three trains each way on Saturdays but add one 1-2 each way on summer weekdays. An important factor would be giving reasonable connections for services on the east coast at Retford. They don't need to be perfect but nobody's going to wait three hours. I take the point about paths, while the Brigg line itself is light on traffic Nunnery Junction sees a lot. I wonder if a shuttle from Cleethorpes to Retford or thereabouts would work around this - then we get our connection to the east coast and with a tolerable westbound service from there already, anyone who wants to go further west can change trains.

The difficulty of buying tickets online for long distance journeys to Brigg and Kirton doesn't help. (Note the "to" - insanely "from" works fine!) Search for King's Cross - Brigg and you'll see an £94 full single or a £55-ish Advance to go the long way round via Lincoln and Barnetby. That extra three miles costs a whopping £30 more than an Advance to Barnetby alone. The problem isn't unique to LNER and affects all the retailers I've tried, so presumably reflects a bug in the logic they share.

When I tried to take up the issue in 2019 I was told that Northern wasn't letting their tickets be combined with other people's Advances, which turned out to be wrong. Then I was told LNER/Hull Trains/etc have no obligation to sell Advances and that's why there weren't any.

Following the letter I posted in #69 an industry insider kindly took a close look at the problem. After talking to senior staff at LNER they discovered, infuratingly, that there have been £24 Advances from KGX-BGG all along but one needs to explicitly tell the retailer's search tool "not via Doncaster" to see them. So much for the NRCoT rule that operators have to offer the "best value" fare!

My letter chasing it up with LNER, after their customer service department first tried to close the case without action, is here. I forwarded a copy to Northern too but I get the feeling there's little communication between TOCs Customer Service teams and their management, so you might like to alert the latter to it at the next stakeholder meeting if you get the chance.

 

[Bletchleyite]

@Killingworth thanks for posting that, great to hear it's getting attention.

If I was to crayon out a plausible timetable I'd keep the three trains each way on Saturdays but add one 1-2 each way on summer weekdays. An important factor would be giving reasonable connections for services on the east coast at Retford. They don't need to be perfect but nobody's going to wait three hours. I take the point about paths, while the Brigg line itself is light on traffic Nunnery Junction sees a lot. I wonder if a shuttle from Cleethorpes to Retford or thereabouts would work around this - then we get our connection to the east coast and with a tolerable westbound service from there already, anyone who wants to go further west can change trains.

I think if you want a basic but genuinely useful service on a not particularly touristy line, the two things you want are commuter trains Mon-Fri into the nearest big city (so arriving Sheffield at around 0815 and leaving around 1745, those times are good because they provide for most office working patterns in a compact city centre i.e. 8:30-5, 9-5, 9-5:30 and similarly that retail daytime shift), and a Saturday out at around 10am and back at around 4:30pm for a day trip not too early and back for tea, maybe padded by one more round trip at lunchtime (1pm ish) for a morning or afternoon only trip.

 

[Killingworth]

I think if you want a basic but genuinely useful service on a not particularly touristy line, the two things you want are commuter trains Mon-Fri into the nearest big city (so arriving Sheffield at around 0815 and leaving around 1745, those times are good because they provide for most office working patterns in a compact city centre i.e. 8:30-5, 9-5, 9-5:30 and similarly that retail daytime shift), and a Saturday out at around 10am and back at around 4:30pm for a day trip not too early and back for tea, maybe padded by one more round trip at lunchtime (1pm ish) for a morning or afternoon only trip.

Which very clearly isn't going to happen with just one train a day leaving Sheffield at 9.54 and arriving at 11.33 and Cleethorpes at 11.44. Just in time for a look at the sea and grab some fish and chips to start back again at 13.20 from Cleethorpes, or after some shopping in Grimsby at 13.27, arriving back in Sheffield for 15.11.

But at least it's a train and it can be developed from there. Other lines might say that ifv there' a unit anc crew available it might be more productively employed there.

Those more familiar than I with Northern's route knowledge and traction criteria together with depot rosters will understand how running such an infrequent service is more challenging than it first seems. Retaining that knowledge may be easier running on 5 days a week than on only one?

The issue of connections at Retford was raised on Friday. As the ECML operators may tweek their services to suit that line's constraints, maybe just by a few minutes, and Northern have to fit in at Sheffield and from Barnetby any good connections at Reford are a bonus.

 

[mocko]

Retaining that knowledge may be easier running on 5 days a week

That's an interesting point. Northern has been running weekday route learners of late - perhaps they've decided they may as well do it in addition to the existing Saturday service with a few 'borrowed' Transpennine passengers on board. If it's in marginal time with a crew and unit they already had, everyone's a winner and Northern has been unfairly maligned for mucking about with the service. Though I must say they haven't helped themselves, they had plenty of opportunities a month ago to set the record straight.

With so much confusion over the issue we aren't going to know for certain what's going on until the May timetable is confirmed. Here's hoping we still have our kind-of-useful Saturday service, with or without a shiny new weekday one.

 

[ChrisC]

The issue of connections at Retford was raised on Friday. As the ECML operators may tweek their services to suit that line's constraints, maybe just by a few minutes, and Northern have to fit in at Sheffield and from Barnetby any good connections at Reford are a bonus.

Was there any mention on Friday of connections at Worksop? The connection to and from the Nottingham service is missed by just a few minutes. I think it’s just 3 minutes when travelling to Nottingham. With a bit of advertising I’m sure there ought to be some potential for journeys to Cleethorpes from the Mansfield area.

The problem is that EMR can’t retime their trains due to the constraints of the single line between Bulwell and Kirkby in Ashfield. Also there is the platforming arrangements and pathing of trains at Worksop to consider.

I’m going to put up with an hour wait in each direction at Worksop, and make a trip from Hucknall, splitting tickets at Brigg sometime in the next few weeks when there isn’t a strike.

 

[Killingworth]

Was there any mention on Friday of connections at Worksop? The connection to and from the Nottingham service is missed by just a few minutes. I think it’s just 3 minutes when travelling to Nottingham. With a bit of advertising I’m sure there ought to be some potential for journeys to Cleethorpes from the Mansfield area.

The problem is that EMR can’t retime their trains due to the constraints of the single line between Bulwell and Kirkby in Ashfield. Also there is the platforming arrangements and pathing of trains at Worksop to consider.

I’m going to put up with an hour wait in each direction at Worksop, and make a trip from Hucknall, splitting tickets at Brigg sometime in the next few weeks when there isn’t a strike.

Threading an effectively new service through existing paths is clearly difficult so just getting it at all may be fortunate. If Worksop could guarantee a lot of extra users with a better connection I suppose it might be considered later. With the May timetable I can't imagine it will be busy and there must be great pressure to use the resource elsewhere.

With the May timetable it's hard to see many users apart from those going for the ride to see where it goes. That won't last for long. In my case it starts from Sheffield too late and won't connect there with my incoming train. Coming back I'd take a later TPE service, assuming it ran.

 

[IBLRG]

Sadly as we have previously wrote The Department for transport have confirmed that northern do not wish to run the Brigg Line passenger services.

Recent correspondence highlighting this dates from just a few months ago in January.

This is confirmed by the fact of their stubborn reluctance to be flexible with the present three trains on a Saturday service, and the total disregard for offering any advance fares or promotions to increase footfall especially for the communities of Brigg and Kirton in Lindsey.

Everyone is well aware of the problems with TransPennine, but as we will clarify again a shuttle service from Cleethorpes to Worksop using one unit, is the most cost effective way of providing these communities with some sort of passenger service. (Suggested timetable attached)

Another problem is support, where's support from local councils and The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group can only take you so far, you will find that politicians on this route, especially in Northern Lincolnshire are more interested in the LNER service to and from London from Cleethorpes, than improving any form of local passenger service.

Again we find ourselves with communities that have been putting a position that is not their fault but yet they are being punished for it.

 

[InkyScrolls]

Do those timings fit in with the current timetable, i.e. at Cleethorpes and Worksop?

 

[ChrisC]

Do those timings fit in with the current timetable, i.e. at Cleethorpes and Worksop?

It certainly fits in very well with connections at Worksop to Mansfield and Nottingham. An 8 minute connection time in one direction and 21 minutes the other direction. I’m not sure whether passengers numbers changing at Worksop for destinations to Mansfield and Nottingham will be any more than currently travel through to Sheffield!

 

[InkyScrolls]

That's good to know - but, more importantly, does it fit with the working timetable? E.g. are there going to be pathing conflicts if your (very tidy!) timetable were introduced?

 

[Sealink]

The Saturday service is being canned, and replaced with a single round trip on weekdays.

Journey planner still showing three services on Saturdays...

 

[mocko]

I've finally managed to get a clear(ish) answer about the future of the Brigg line.

Prompted by the conflicting information (Northern's social media team saying no changes from May, everyone else including the WTT saying there are) I wrote to Northern asking what on earth is going on. Apparently the query had to be escalated all the way up to the regional director to find someone who knew the answer!

The response is:

I can confirm so far the Brigg service is withdrawn on a Saturday. The service now operates on a Monday through to Friday from May 2023.

So, goodbye to the useful-for-leisure 6tpd we've had on Saturdays for thirty years, hello to a borderline-useless 2tpd on weekdays. Sad times.

 

[IBLRG]

The Independent Brigg Line Rail Group poster for the Monday to Friday Brigg Line services from May 22nd..

Saturday Only services withdrawn due to DfT asking for 10% reductions.

 

[lyndhurst25]

I used the Saturday service yesterday (0753 from Sheffield, 1511 from Cleethorpes). It seemed quite well used with multiple people boarding or alighting at Gainsborough Central, Kirton Lindsey and Brigg, along with some travelling all the way from South Yorks/North Notts to NE Lincolnshire.

Glad I didn’t wait wait for the 1917 service from Cleethorpes, as it and the inbound service from Sheffield were cancelled to to lack train-crew. A bus was laid on by Northern.

Half overheard a conversation between a passenger and the guard about the merits of getting a railcard. The guard said something along the lines of don’t bother as in a few weeks the service will be next to useless for trips to Cleethorpes. I certainly can’t see me using the line again with the new timetable.

Over the weekend there were buses replacing TPE trains between Cleethorpes and Doncaster due to engineering works between Barnetby and Scunthorpe. It is a pity that they didn’t arrange diversions via Brigg.

 

[jessy]

I've finally managed to get a clear(ish) answer about the future of the Brigg line.

Prompted by the conflicting information (Northern's social media team saying no changes from May, everyone else including the WTT saying there are) I wrote to Northern asking what on earth is going on. Apparently the query had to be escalated all the way up to the regional director to find someone who knew the answer!

The response is:



So, goodbye to the useful-for-leisure 6tpd we've had on Saturdays for thirty years, hello to a borderline-useless 2tpd on weekdays. Sad times.

There will be an express bus ran by Stagecoach to cover for Saturdays.

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

 

[mocko]

There will be an express bus ran by Stagecoach to cover for Saturdays.

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

X90 - Mansfield - Sutton Parkway

Stagecoach East Midlands

bustimes.org

Unless I'm mistaken that bus 1) only runs for six weeks and 2) doesn't call at Brigg. However could it be a viable alternative for people who want to go to/from there?

 

[30907]

Unless I'm mistaken that bus 1) only runs for six weeks and 2) doesn't call at Brigg. However could it be a viable alternative for people who want to go to/from there?

It can't. But the hourly bus from Scunthorpe might, for most journeys.