How could Sheffield station be improved?

[zwk500]

The section of cutting constrained to two tracks is very short, so it might be worth opening that out a bit to the west and separating out the Meadowhall/GC routes.

This isn't as simple as you make it sound.

 

[yorksrob]

This isn't as simple as you make it sound.

I suppose it depends on what's on top of it.

 

[HSTEd]

There looks to be a housing estate in the way from what I can tell from aerial photography.

Not much of a chance there in that case.

The more I look at it the more I come to the conclusion that the best option was a new station near the other major transport hub in South Yorkshire..... Meadowhall. Sheffield station has been pushed as far as it can go.

 

[DelayRepay]

Sheffield needs more London services and yes the Manchester services are important but there could be a more efficient use of paths for these than the EMR service. Ideally all Manchester services should either use the through platforms and not terminate in these, or terminate in the west-facing bay platform (or both).

Does Sheffield need more London services? If there's a need for more seats to London, could this not be achieved by running longer trains? In the future won't this need potentially be met by links to HS2? (I know that's far from certain). Both of these seem a better idea than messing up journeys for people who want to travel to Sheffield from the East or West of England.

And anyway, can the Southern part of the line accommodate more services from Sheffield alongside the EM Connect and Thameslink trains?

On the latter point, surely 20-30 minutes is excessive? I would say 10 minutes is enough for a quick clean/clear up if a more thorough clean of the train is done at St Pancras.

Doesn't the 'clean up' time also serve as recovery time, to absorb delays to incoming stock/crews so that the outbound service can still depart on time?

 

[Philip]

Leicester and Manchester are more valid comparisons with Sheffield than Leeds is as far as the link to London is concerned; Leeds seems to lean more towards Manchester than Sheffield does and Sheffield has stronger links with the East Midlands than it does with West Yorkshire. Leicester has 3 or 4 London services and I think another one of these could be extended to Sheffield.

Of the two existing London services from Sheffield, one is relatively slow and only formed of 4-5 coaches, so I think at the very least there should be a half-hourly express 10-coach service which does the journey in under two hours. People often seem to underestimate the size of Sheffield - as a city on its own it is bigger than both Manchester and Leeds. If another London service was introduced then all 3 would be well-filled before long.

 

[Neptune]

Leicester and Manchester are more valid comparisons with Sheffield than Leeds is as far as the link to London is concerned; Leeds seems to lean more towards Manchester than Sheffield does and Sheffield has stronger links with the East Midlands than it does with West Yorkshire. Leicester has 3 or 4 London services and I think another one of these could be extended to Sheffield.

Of the two existing London services from Sheffield, one is relatively slow, so I think at the very least there should be a half-hourly express service which does the journey in under two hours. People often seem to underestimate the size of Sheffield - as a city on its own it is bigger than both Manchester and Leeds.

So what you are saying is that connectivity in the north should be discarded for the sake of more London connectivity. Ever heard of levelling up? Some of us actually want it and don’t want to be beholden to the capital.

Wouldn’t you rather see decent connectivity to/from the North West, East Midlands and East Anglia with South Yorkshire? (don’t underestimate the size of Sheffield either). Not everything in the north needs to point south.

I’d rather see a 3rd fast between Sheffield and Manchester and a 2nd proper fast between Leeds and Sheffield before a 3rd London service. I’m sure the people of Sheffield would prefer that too, better connectivity across the north.
Leicester gets its 4tph London service due to it being on both routes rather than anything else. It is also 99 miles from London which is rather more commutable than Sheffield although as we know commuting patterns are rather different to how they were 3 years ago.

Also don’t forget that for vast swathes of South Yorkshire they are equally served by the major South Yorkshire railhead that is Doncaster which already has plenty of London trains and it’s a damn sight quicker.

 

[DelayRepay]

Leicester and Manchester are more valid comparisons with Sheffield than Leeds is as far as the link to London is concerned; Leeds seems to lean more towards Manchester than Sheffield does and Sheffield has stronger links with the East Midlands than it does with West Yorkshire. Leicester has 3 or 4 London services and I think another one of these could be extended to Sheffield.

I don't agree about Sheffield having stronger links with the East Midlands than West Yorkshire. When I lived in Sheffield I knew plenty of people who worked in Leeds, I don't remember anyone working in the East Midlands (apart from Chesterfield, which doesn't really count!). Also when I was based in Sheffield, all my company's regional meetings/training courses etc were in Leeds (because we were the 'Yorkshire' region). I doubt we were unusual.

Of the two existing London services from Sheffield, one is relatively slow and only formed of 4-5 coaches, so I think at the very least there should be a half-hourly express 10-coach service which does the journey in under two hours. People often seem to underestimate the size of Sheffield - as a city on its own it is bigger than both Manchester and Leeds. If another London service was introduced then all 3 would be well-filled before long.

I think improving the Sheffield - London service would be a good thing, but not at the expense of connectivity between Sheffield and other parts of the North.

 

[Killingworth]

So what you are saying is that connectivity in the north should be discarded for the sake of more London connectivity. Ever heard of levelling up? Some of us actually want it and don’t want to be beholden to the capital.

Wouldn’t you rather see decent connectivity to/from the North West, East Midlands and East Anglia with South Yorkshire? (don’t underestimate the size of Sheffield either). Not everything in the north needs to point south.

I’d rather see a 3rd fast between Sheffield and Manchester and a 2nd proper fast between Leeds and Sheffield before a 3rd London service. I’m sure the people of Sheffield would prefer that too, better connectivity across the north.
Leicester gets its 4tph London service due to it being on both routes rather than anything else. It is also 99 miles from London which is rather more commutable than Sheffield although as we know commuting patterns are rather different to how they were 3 years ago.

Also don’t forget that for vast swathes of South Yorkshire they are equally served by the major South Yorkshire railhead that is Doncaster which already has plenty of London trains and it’s a damn sight quicker.

At present between Sheffield and Manchester we need to see punctual, full length fast trains every hour from both TPE and EMR before we ask for any more. Currently we don't and Northern operate more stoppers than either of them. They're often more reliable because they don't have to come from Liverpool, Cleethorpes, Nottingham or Norwich. It may take an extra 20 minutes but they're increasingly popular.

Services between Sheffield and Leeds are.... very poor. But we run up against the congested northern throat out of Sheffield and lack of suitable platform capacity in Leeds.

 

[AndyMike]

Given all the limitations that have been mentioned, clearly wholesale change is out of the question. One improvement I’d like to see, though: the addition of escalator provision.

 

[dosxuk]

Widening the cutting to the north:


None of the roads that go over the existing cutting are particularly important and could easily be closed for the time needed to excavate (although you'd want to avoid closing both City Road and Broad Street at the same time). There is only one actual building on the space needed to widen the cutting, and that appears to be abandoned.

Getting 4 tracks past Tesco:


The main constraint here seems to be the southern Archer road bridge, which would need reconstructing to allow for an additional track to the north and south of the existing alignment. I believe several of these bridges have been identified as needing reconstruction for electrification though. Most of the boundary fences are already set back far enough from the existing lines to allow for the two additional tracks with safe spacing.

None of this would be cheap, but they are far from insurmountable problems.

 

[Philip]

Interesting article relating to improvements around Sheffield. I think reopening Sheffield Victoria is very unlikely based on what people have said in this thread, but 'the old road' is in good working station and it'd be useful if stations like Beighton and Renishaw reopened.

Reopening of Barrow Hill Line means new stations at Sheffield Victoria, Beighton, Killamarsh and Eckington moves step closer

A plan to reopen a railway line linking Sheffield and Chesterfield through the city’s south east and North East Derbyshire has taken another step closer.

www.thestar.co.uk

 

[zwk500]

Interesting article relating to improvements around Sheffield. I think reopening Sheffield Victoria is very unlikely based on what people have said in this thread, but 'the old road' is in good working station and it'd be useful if stations like Beighton and Renishaw reopened.

Sheffield Victoria would be the wrong solution. I'm not sure Renishaw station would really help, the actual village isn't that big and Eckington is just as close to Halfway Tram stop and has good bus links. Sheffield Midland is reasonably central but not in the best position for where people want to go. There is also a massive problem of fitting more conflicting movements over Nunnery Jn and of getting enough platform space at Sheffield. IIRC a previous study (using a pre-covid timetable) had worked out that 1tph was just about doable but 2tph was never going to work. 1tph was judged to not be enough to generate sufficient passengers, so presumably this next stage of further study will either be re-evaluating the timetable options or looking at the financials for 1tph.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Also don’t forget that for vast swathes of South Yorkshire they are equally served by the major South Yorkshire railhead that is Doncaster which already has plenty of London trains and it’s a damn sight quicker.

What would you say to a chord from Askham on the ECML to Worksop or a chord from Parkgate to Bawtry ?

 

[Neptune]

What would you say to a chord from Askham on the ECML to Worksop or a chord from Parkgate to Bawtry ?

BCR? It sounds very expensive for little gain.

 

[Halifaxlad]

BCR? It sounds very expensive for little gain.

Whatever you do will be expensive!

I would love to know why you think speeding up services to Sheffield and freeing up capacity on the MML is 'little gain' ?

 

[Neptune]

Whatever you do will be expensive!

I would love to know why you think speeding up services to Sheffield and freeing up capacity on the MML is 'little gain' ?

The expense won’t just be the chord (which I’m assuming you are thinking of without everything that would go with it), it will also be electrification, signalling, trackwork, earthworks, bridge works, most likely compulsory purchase orders, grade seperated junctions (we can’t afford anymore flat junctions on the ECML) and finally capacity. You mention freeing up capacity on the MML but conveniently leave out taking up capacity on the already busy ECML south of Doncaster.

So again I ask, BCR? What is the overall time saving benefit compared to the exorbitant cost of implementation and loss of crucial ECML capacity compared to electrification of the route that already exists with trains ordered ready for the day the juice is switched on on the MML which has the capacity for Sheffield services already factored in.

 

[HSTEd]

All this sounds like it costs more than the Meadowhall HS2 station would have done, which would have eliminated most of the capacity concerns by shifting the bulk of the long distance traffic out of Midland.

I think this is going to turn into a case of "Careful what you wish for" for Sheffield.

 

[edwin_m]

Assuming HS2 gets to East Midlands Parkway it should help with London-Sheffield journey times. Unless it goes further than that it won't help with ECML capacity, so spending money on getting to Sheffield via the ECML doesn't seem sensible.

 

[JD2168]

Some things that could be improved at Sheffield are:
Increased roof length on all platforms, particularly a problem on the B part of the platform where the roof is too short providing no cover on rainy days. You could also add some glass sides to help with this as well.
Fix/add another left from entrance area to walkway above platform, Current lift has been working slowly for a long while.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The expense won’t just be the chord (which I’m assuming you are thinking of without everything that would go with it), it will also be electrification, signalling, trackwork, earthworks, bridge works, most likely compulsory purchase orders, grade seperated junctions (we can’t afford anymore flat junctions on the ECML) and finally capacity. You mention freeing up capacity on the MML but conveniently leave out taking up capacity on the already busy ECML south of Doncaster.

So again I ask, BCR? What is the overall time saving benefit compared to the exorbitant cost of implementation and loss of crucial ECML capacity compared to electrification of the route that already exists with trains ordered ready for the day the juice is switched on on the MML which has the capacity for Sheffield services already factored in.

In the context of the ECML, it is likely that a new line will be built bypassing Doncaster. HS2 as originally proposed is very much dead if not very nearly dead. Freeing up capacity for more services through Doncaster such as Sheffield to Hull.

It is too early to say how HS2 and NPR from Sheffield will reach Leeds although a new chord could also connect into a mix of new and upgraded line around that area.

My general thoughts are about how HS2 could reach Sheffield, which it is always presumed to be from the South rather than from the North which might be better.







If you want a BCR that badly go and ask someone to calculate one although first they may have to know what your proposing!

 

[edwin_m]

In the context of the ECML, it is likely that a new line will be built bypassing Doncaster. HS2 as originally proposed is very much dead if not very nearly dead. Freeing up capacity for more services through Doncaster such as Sheffield to Hull.

It is too early to say how HS2 and NPR from Sheffield will reach Leeds although a new chord could also connect into a mix of new and upgraded line around that area.

My general thoughts are about how HS2 could reach Sheffield, which it is always presumed to be from the South rather than from the North which might be better.

You're making an assumption that HS2 will reach Leeds via Sheffield. I'd say that is unlikely, as the train from London would be no faster than via the ECML and it would feed extra trains through places including Sheffield that have no capacity for them. I agree a Doncaster bypass is part of the solution (on the big assumption that it's a problem the government actually plans to tackle), but I think it would come off the ECML to the south and perhaps pick up some of the abandoned HS2 route towards Leeds - not towards Sheffield.

 

[gerryuk]

Relocate the car park and some small buildings and you could build a couple of island platforms at the front side of the station, on the land that used to be the goods yard. Trains from the south can terminate there and there is enough land to put in sidings to store trains as well. The land that the good yard used to be on, has been lying empty for years.
The platforms would be the same direction as the currant ones to avoid a sharp curve.

 

[Dumpty]

Get the Dive-under dug out and reinstated

 

[BrianW]

Get the Dive-under dug out and reinstated

I've mentioned before (can't remember where!!) using this dive-under when visiting Sheffield for an interview as an aspirant student. I travelled from St Pancras (via Clay Cross and a four-platform Dore & Totley IIRC) and back via Retford to KX.

I also recall 'intermediate' stations at Heeley and Millhouses and what seemed like lots of 'width' available (imperfect memory?).
There must have been similar 'suburban' arrangements to the north, east and west- I would imagine little scope for revival of anything of that kind bearing in mind how 'full' Sheffield (Midland) station has become.

More broadly, this thread examines a wide range of issues, from fundamental to detail- a lot to consider.

I recall a relatively recent document that looked at Sheffield and the other potential Northern Powerhouse 'hubs' in relation to travel to and between each. There are just so many 'variables' to consider, housing, jobs, working from home, 'the economy', the conflicting political dimensions (so many mayors, councils, 'Westminster', etc). Nightmare to get anything agreed, let alone done! (Sympathising with Liz Truss in that regard! )

The various 'comings-and-goings' of HS2 and the Northern Powerhouse have not helped. The key decision it seems to me is to decide what Sheffield Station is FOR? Then to decide whether to go for small/ incremental/ quick wins or a bigger picture redesign. It's hard to see the latter at this 'challenging time'. The picture I'm getting (not put like this) is of 'too many trains'!

Out of interest (and to finish, for now) I came across these interesting aerial shots: https://www.sheffieldhistory.co.uk/forums/topic/17000-sheffield-midland-train-station/

 

[Halifaxlad]

You're making an assumption that HS2 will reach Leeds via Sheffield. I'd say that is unlikely, as the train from London would be no faster than via the ECML and it would feed extra trains through places including Sheffield that have no capacity for them. I agree a Doncaster bypass is part of the solution (on the big assumption that it's a problem the government actually plans to tackle), but I think it would come off the ECML to the south and perhaps pick up some of the abandoned HS2 route towards Leeds - not towards Sheffield.

I'm expecting/hoping the Newark alignment option of the alternative options drawn up by Mott Macdonald to be taken forward at some stage.

In theory and in conjunction with a new chord it should then be possible for Sheffield to be served by HS2 via Nottingham and Newark.

 

[HSTEd]

I think, despite what they currently state, that de-facto the route to Leeds will shift to be via Manchester. It's likely to be significantly faster than the other options even with changing at Manchester, and with the effective abandonment of the Eastern leg there will be lots of seats to fill on the HS2 Core.