How could a reopened Bury - Heywood - Rochdale line work?

[DorkingMain]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/next-50-bids-for-reopenings.205994

How would the Bury - Heywood - Rochdale line work? Would it consume the current East Lancs preserved railway?

Presumably there would be some sort of tram-train arrangement allowing trains to run Piccadilly - Bury - Heywood - Rochdale?

 

[daodao]

There is a decent bus service (471) from Bury to Rochdale every 10 minutes (every 30 minutes Sundays and evenings) which penetrates the town centres, whereas Heywood and Rochdale stations are not well sited. However, there may be some merit in running trains from Victoria to Heywood, calling at Mills Hill and Moston, and thus reducing the number of local trains terminating at Victoria. This could be largely separate from the ELR.

 

[Codville]

I don't think it would consume the whole of the ELR, from looking at Bury Bolton St using Google Maps NR could take possession of the platform with the bar on it and disconnect it from the ELR prevent any conflicts, the ELR's connection to the Heywood line could stay intact with its operation transferred to NR's control, Reopening the line to rail services could also allow for a station to be placed beside the large industrial park in Heywood with services either coming direct from Victoria or them going to Rochdale first before carrying on to Heywood and Bury.

 

[A0]

I don't think it would consume the whole of the ELR, from looking at Bury Bolton St using Google Maps NR could take possession of the platform with the bar on it and disconnect it from the ELR prevent any conflicts, the ELR's connection to the Heywood line could stay intact with its operation transferred to NR's control, Reopening the line to rail services could also allow for a station to be placed beside the large industrial park in Heywood with services either coming direct from Victoria or them going to Rochdale first before carrying on to Heywood and Bury.

Can't see them running into Bolton Street. Surely it would make more sense to run to Interchange - the area South East of Interchange looks like wasteland and then the formation alongside the ELR to Heywood would originally have been twin track, so there should be space, apart from the ELR's run-round loop at Heywood.

 

[Ianno87]

Can't see them running into Bolton Street. Surely it would make more sense to run to Interchange - the area South East of Interchange looks like wasteland and then the formation alongside the ELR to Heywood would originally have been twin track, so there should be space, apart from the ELR's run-round loop at Heywood.

Bolton Street is definitely somewhat stuck out of the way from other transport connections.

Throwing some money at this you'd spur off a platform track somewhere near the 'ski jump' to stop in close proximity to the present Interchange.

 

[yorksrob]

Bolton St is quite handy for the town centre though. It would be quite good to get a fastish train from there.

 

[Ianno87]

Bolton St is quite handy for the town centre though. It would be quite good to get a fastish train from there.

Not realy - the town centre has really expended on the Eastern side (the Rock etc) in recent years.

 

[A0]

Bolton St is quite handy for the town centre though. It would be quite good to get a fastish train from there.

For over 40 years Bury's station has been Interchange - that's all most people will know. And Interchange is in the town centre, right next to the market. In fact part of the logic for Interchange is it was better sited for the town centre.

Where Metrolink is concerned it's about providing effective transport links not about the rose tinted nostalgia-fest of some enthusiasts.

 

[yorksrob]

For over 40 years Bury's station has been Interchange - that's all most people will know. And Interchange is in the town centre, right next to the market.

Where Metrolink is concerned it's about providing effective transport links not about the rose tinted nostalgia-fest of some enthusiasts.

I'm just pointing out that if you didn't want tbe cost of building a new formation into the interchange, Bolton St isn't poorly sited.

And this discussion isn't even about metrolink anyway.

 

[A0]

I'm just pointing out that if you didn't want tbe cost of building a new formation into the interchange, Bolton St isn't poorly sited.

Except it is poorly sited, it's further out of the town centre, would unnecessarily split the departure points, isn't viewed as the main station in Bury and you have the challenge of integrating it around the ELR.

 

[yorksrob]

Except it is poorly sited, it's further out of the town centre, would unnecessarily split the departure points, isn't viewed as the main station in Bury and you have the challenge of integrating it around the ELR.

It's not poorly sited at all. It's about 2 minutes from the centre.

From the point of view of someone in Bury, what do you care that it's not the main station. You'll go to whichever station has the service you're intending to catch.

In terms of the ELR, there are three platforms, so it wouldn't be that difficult to separate out.

 

[Ianno87]

It's not poorly sited at all. It's about 2 minutes from the centre.

2 minutes from the very western end of the shopping area, crossing multiple roads in the process.

From the point of view of someone in Bury, what do you care that it's not the main station. You'll go to whichever station has the service you're intending to catch.

Which is in part influenced by how easy the station is to access e.g. getting off a bus at the Interchange and wanting to go to Manchester would you walk 5-10 minutes across town for one or two trains per hour, or head for the trams that are right there and running every 6 minutes.

 

[A0]

It's not poorly sited at all. It's about 2 minutes from the centre.

From the point of view of someone in Bury, what do you care that it's not the main station. You'll go to whichever station has the service you're intending to catch.

In terms of the ELR, there are three platforms, so it wouldn't be that difficult to separate out.

Sorry, you're wrong.

Look at a map - Interchange is next to the market and the 'town centre' is east of that. Bolton St is 0.5 a mile further west - the opposite direction.

And people DO care about convenience - and it is more convenient and sensible to use Interchange rather than a station that most of the locals will view as 'the steam railway's station'. You need to be almost in your 60s to have been an adult and travelled from Bolton Street on a "proper" i.e. not heritage train.

Also, I presume the ELR own the station and track? So why would they give that up? It's precisely no benefit to them and would result in some parts of Bolton St having to be modernised which would destroy part of their tourist attraction.

You seem to have a very 'Nelsonian' view of these things.

 

[yorksrob]

2 minutes from the very western end of the shopping area, crossing multiple roads in the process.




Which is in part influenced by how easy the station is to access e.g. getting off a bus at the Interchange and wanting to go to Manchester would you walk 5-10 minutes across town for one or two trains per hour, or head for the trams that are right there and running every 6 minutes.

I've walked it several times. It really is better sited than most stations I use. Granted, its also easy to hop on a tram. If it was a fast train without many stops (and competitive in timings) I would probably use it.

Sorry, you're wrong.

Look at a map - Interchange is next to the market and the 'town centre' is east of that. Bolton St is 0.5 a mile further west - the opposite direction.

And people DO care about convenience - and it is more convenient and sensible to use Interchange rather than a station that most of the locals will view as 'the steam railway's station'. You need to be almost in your 60s to have been an adult and travelled from Bolton Street on a "proper" i.e. not heritage train.

Also, I presume the ELR own the station and track? So why would they give that up? It's precisely no benefit to them and would result in some parts of Bolton St having to be modernised which would destroy part of their tourist attraction.

You seem to have a very 'Nelsonian' view of these things.

I disagree. I've been there many times and am always struck how close the station is to the shops and restaurants.

I'm not saying the ELR would want it, or that it would happen, just that its not outlandish. And from their point of view, such a service could deliver thousands of punters direct to their doorstep.

 

[A0]

I'm not saying the ELR would want it, or that it would happen, just that its not outlandish.

It really is.

And from their point of view, such a service could deliver thousands of punters direct to their doorstep.

What utter balderdash. It's about looking at providing a local link between Bury & Rochdale.

Rochdale station *currently* has about 1.5 million users a year which is probably about 5000 a day most of which will be heading to Manchester.

The likelihood of the ELR even getting a couple of hundred people if ML was sent to Bolton St from Rochdale is unlikely.

You seem to have a massively unrealistic view of what would happen. And outlandish statements like the one you made about 'thousands of punters delivered to their doorstep' just kills any credibility your posts have.

 

[Ianno87]

I'm not saying the ELR would want it, or that it would happen, just that its not outlandish. And from their point of view, such a service could deliver thousands of punters direct to their doorstep.

I'd be genuinely intrigued by some stats on the heritage railways that already have a good rail connection close to a major city (e.g. SVR at Kidderminster) what proportion of vistors who arrive by heavy rail (and who wouldn't have visited if that were not the case). I'd be surprised if it were al *that* many.

Bury of course already has a very good rail connection via Metrolink (albeit with a short walk).

 

[A0]

I'd be genuinely intrigued by some stats on the heritage railways that already have a good rail connection close to a major city (e.g. SVR at Kidderminster) what proportion of vistors who arrive by heavy rail (and who wouldn't have visited if that were not the case). I'd be surprised if it were al *that* many.

Bury of course already has a very good rail connection via Metrolink (albeit with a short walk).

I think you're right.

Interestingly this article from 2019 has the 2018 figures for the Lakeside & Haverthwaite - not rail connected - as 211,000 and the ELR as "over 200,000" - so two lines, in the North West attract a similar number if visitors. The L&H is the shorter line and I suspect many enthusiasts would say the ELR is the more "interesting".

2018 visitor numbers up as railways report another successful year | The Railway Hub

LAST Easter’s opening of the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway’s (Gloucs-Warks) extension to Broadway has seen all passenger records tumble for 2018, wit ...

www.therailwayhub.co.uk

The other figures I've found - though a bit older suggest the most popular by passenger numbers are the NYMR, Paignton & Dartmouth and WSR - 2 have a mainline rail link. All 3 are in tourist areas where there will be alot of holidaymakers.

 

[Meerkat]

I think the Lakeside and Haverthwaite has rather a lot more tourists and coach trips round their way!!

 

[A0]

I think the Lakeside and Haverthwaite has rather a lot more tourists and coach trips round their way!!

Maybe so - but that rather proves the point that a national rail connection isn't that important when it comes down to Heritage Railway's visitor numbers.

 

[yorksrob]

It really is.



What utter balderdash. It's about looking at providing a local link between Bury & Rochdale.

Rochdale station *currently* has about 1.5 million users a year which is probably about 5000 a day most of which will be heading to Manchester.

The likelihood of the ELR even getting a couple of hundred people if ML was sent to Bolton St from Rochdale is unlikely.

You seem to have a massively unrealistic view of what would happen. And outlandish statements like the one you made about 'thousands of punters delivered to their doorstep' just kills any credibility your posts have.

I didn't say "thousands of punters a day". Perhaps you ought to read posts properly before getting hysterical.

It's perfectly possible such a link could bring in a few thousand over the course of a year. There seem to be plenty connecting to the K&WVR from National rail when I go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2020 ==

Maybe so - but that rather proves the point that a national rail connection isn't that important when it comes down to Heritage Railway's visitor numbers.

Perhaps that might depend somewhat if said railway was already in a tourist honeypot area.

I like Bury and Ramsbottom, but I don't think they fit in that category.

 

[A0]

I didn't say "thousands of punters a day". Perhaps you ought to read posts properly before getting hysterical.

It's perfectly possible such a link could bring in a few thousand over the course of a year. There seem to be plenty connecting to the K&WVR from National rail when I go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2020 ==

Nor did I say thousands a day - so perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully?

On the basis the ELR operates for 26 weekends a year plus, call it 10 weeks of school holidays - you're looking at circa 100 operating days a year - you'd need *at least* 10 punters a day to turn up via such a link, which, let's not forget, is envisaged as a tram from Rochdale, just to hit 1000 people - yet you said "thousands".

So you won't have used it if you've come from the Manchester area, nor from the Bolton area, nor from Rawtenstall / Burnley.

 

[Ianno87]

I didn't say "thousands of punters a day". Perhaps you ought to read posts properly before getting hysterical.

It's perfectly possible such a link could bring in a few thousand over the course of a year. There seem to be plenty connecting to the K&WVR from National rail when I go.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2020 ==

...and compare that against the cost of modifying Bolton Street station to modern heavy rail standards (straight wide platforms, full accessibilty, buffer stop overruns, safety segregation from the ELR, etc etc etc)

 

[yorksrob]

Nor did I say thousands a day - so perhaps you need to read my posts more carefully?

On the basis the ELR operates for 26 weekends a year plus, call it 10 weeks of school holidays - you're looking at circa 100 operating days a year - you'd need *at least* 10 punters a day to turn up via such a link, which, let's not forget, is envisaged as a tram from Rochdale, just to hit 1000 people - yet you said "thousands".

So you won't have used it if you've come from the Manchester area, nor from the Bolton area, nor from Rawtenstall / Burnley.

I bet they easily get that at Keighley.

Your assertion that such numbers as ten a day are unlikely, is frankly ridiculous.

...and compare that against the cost of modifying Bolton Street station to modern heavy rail standards (straight wide platforms, full accessibilty, buffer stop overruns, safety segregation from the ELR, etc etc etc)

True. But if, for example they were to take over the East side bay for example, which has access to the street, such costs would be a lot less.

 

[A0]

I bet they easily get that at Keighley.

Your assertion that such numbers as ten a day are unlikely, is frankly ridiculous.

Again, you're comparing apples with bananas. Keighley has a direct train service from Leeds (popn 2.5m), Bradford (popn 0.5m) whereas this is a tram link to Rochdale (popn 100k).

Add in it's easy to access the ELR at Heywood from Rochdale using the bus.

 

[daodao]

I bet they easily get that at Keighley. Your assertion that such numbers as ten a day are unlikely, is frankly ridiculous. True. But if, for example they were to take over the East side bay for example, which has access to the street, such costs would be a lot less.

Metrolink isn't likely to be particularly useful as a link to the ELR, in fact the proposal to run a line from Rochdale to Bury if built at all needs to link up with the existing Metrolink services at Bury and Rochdale.

There are far more worthy Metrolink proposals. May I suggest the Atherton line to Wigan and the Marple Rose Hill line via Reddish, which could reach the city centre and penetrate it with suitable on street links (Pendleton to Albert Square and Ashburys to Piccadilly).

 

[yorksrob]

Metrolink isn't likely to be particularly useful as a link to the ELR, in fact the proposal to run a line from Rochdale to Bury if built at all needs to link up with the existing Metrolink services at Bury and Rochdale.

There are far more worthy Metrolink proposals. May I suggest the Atherton line to Wigan and the Marple Rose Hill line via Reddish, which could reach the city centre and penetrate it with suitable on street links (Pendleton to Albert Square and Ashburys to Piccadilly).

You may suggest, but consigning Atherton line passengers to a slow pootle through the streets of suburban Manchester is a dreadful idea. It has even less merit than the ill judged suggestion to turn Glossop over to the trams.

Even if we don't go all the way to Bury, a heavy rail link to Heywood, alowing trains from Victoria to turn back there would be my primary suggestion for the route.

 

[A0]

Even if we don't go all the way to Bury, a heavy rail link to Heywood, alowing trains from Victoria to turn back there would be my primary suggestion for the route.

Except running more trains to Rochdale would attract far more users and be a better use of any such paths.

Heywood's population is about 30,000 and Castleton station is a couple of miles away.

Creating a stub of a branch is just a vanity project - and an unnecessary one at that. Linking Bury to Rochdale using Metrolink has some merit.

 

[daodao]

Even if we don't go all the way to Bury, a heavy rail link to Heywood, allowing trains from Victoria to turn back there would be my primary suggestion for the route.

At least we agree on that - see my post no. 2 earlier in this thread.

 

[Ianno87]

I bet they easily get that at Keighley.

Your assertion that such numbers as ten a day are unlikely, is frankly ridiculous.



True. But if, for example they were to take over the East side bay for example, which has access to the street, such costs would be a lot less.

1. The East side bay is very short. It'd need to be 6 or 8 car length minimum (and straight) if we're talking extending stuff through from Victoria

2. It takes out some of the ELR's parking if you do anyting with it

3. The road/ramp up to Bolton Street itself off memory is a reasonably steep slope, would likely not credibly fulfill a Diversity Impact Assessment

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2020 ==

Except running more trains to Rochdale would attract far more users and be a better use of any such paths.

I can see a point where, say, 6tph to Rochdale is enough to satisfy demand. 7/8tph need *somewhere* to go, but would not be adding much more value at Rochdale itself.

 

[yorksrob]

Except running more trains to Rochdale would attract far more users and be a better use of any such paths.

Heywood's population is about 30,000 and Castleton station is a couple of miles away.

Creating a stub of a branch is just a vanity project - and an unnecessary one at that. Linking Bury to Rochdale using Metrolink has some merit.

A direct rail link to Manchester would be an absolute boon to Heywood and provide turnback facilities for the Railway. Win win.

You could even have one track for heavy rail and another for trams on the double track formation.

If a basic, short branch extending existing services to a town of 30k people is a "vanity project" there's precious little hope of getting anything done.

At least we agree on that - see my post no. 2 earlier in this thread.

It's always good to see an area of agreement !

1. The East side bay is very short. It'd need to be 6 or 8 car length minimum (and straight) if we're talking extending stuff through from Victoria

2. It takes out some of the ELR's parking if you do anyting with it

3. The road/ramp up to Bolton Street itself off memory is a reasonably steep slope, would likely not credibly fulfill a Diversity Impact Assessment

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Sep 2020 ==



I can see a point where, say, 6tph to Rochdale is enough to satisfy demand. 7/8tph need *somewhere* to go, but would not be adding much more value at Rochdale itself.

Problems that would need addressing, but by no means insurmountable.