How can we make changing trains more bearable for the travelling public?

[miklcct]

People being able to actually plan journeys rather than be babysat by someone else would be a start. Would fix a lot of others problems in the world too. Giving yourself leeway for changing trains, so you don't have to rush, would make the change so much easier than panicking on the day.

For example, and this is a journey my family did, Liverpool to Weymouth, via London. We picked a train time from Waterloo to Weymouth, that would allow us to make the journey from Euston to Waterloo in a taxi, with time to spare.

Of course, other things went wrong when we actually got on the train to Weymouth, but we made the connection easily.

For business and commuting journeys, every second matters. Especially the former one, every second spent on the trip is wasted productivity for the employer, and for the latter, every second saved on the commute is a second of sleep gained.

If the railways want businessmen and commuters back, they need to run a service where the reliability can be timed to seconds, like Japan.

 

[zwk500]

For business and commuting journeys, every second matters. Especially the former one, every second spent on the trip is wasted productivity for the employer, and for the latter, every second saved on the commute is a second of sleep gained.

If the railways want businessmen and commuters back, they need to run a service where the reliability can be timed to seconds, like Japan.

No they don't. They just need a service that does what it advertises.

 

[Purple Train]

If the railways were more reliable, that might encourage people to trust them enough to risk tighter connections. To take an example, on a recent trip I made that involved changing at Reading, I decided to purchase an extra peak single to Reading rather than wait for the off-peak train which had an eight-minute connection. It may have been £5 wasted in the grand scheme of things, given an eight-minute connection was clearly doable and the train I would have caught into Reading was on time, but it soothed my fears about making the change and got me onto the connection in enough time to bag a prized Voyager table.

If the railways want businessmen and commuters back, they need to run a service where the reliability can be timed to seconds, like Japan.

They don't need to. It may be better than what we currently have, but the infrastructure required would be immense, for comparatively little benefit, and British culture does not prize the seconds in the same way Japan does.

 

[Sm5]

Improve facilities at stations with connections.

if you have to wait, having somewhere pleasant to wait is far more appealing.

The whole system isnt really pleasant for long distance journeys, catering ranges from non-existent, to a mobile sugar rack.

Now make that a 4 hour journey with kids, with a minging toilet and a 30 minute wait in a wind chilling bus shelter for the next train and its not hard to see why people chose alternatives.

 

[AlterEgo]

First thing I'd do would be something about Birmingham New st. Its so confusing and frustrating trying to change trains there. Get rid of the countless ticket barriers and glass walls that prevent easy access to platform changes.

Agreed. Birmingham New Street is one of the least intuitive station layouts in the country because it follows a different design philosophy from every other station. The “lounges” are nonsense.

 

[JonathanH]

The “lounges” are nonsense.

Why? Is it better to wait on the platforms?

 

[jfollows]

Why? Is it better to wait on the platforms?

Yes it is. For me, but not for everyone. I get to watch trains and get a feeling for what’s happening if things are going wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why? Is it better to wait on the platforms?

No, but there’s no real reason to have separate “lounges”. No other station has this design philosophy in the country. What’s wrong with one large train hall? That’s the least confusing of all designs for the average Brit.

 

[matacaster]

Correct!
For locals it's probably ok as they know it's layout and where to go. For large numbers of long distance passengers it's absolutely crap.

First thing I'd do would be something about Birmingham New st. Its so confusing and frustrating trying to change trains there. Get rid of the countless ticket barriers and glass walls that prevent easy access to platform changes.

 

[zwk500]

Yes it is. For me, but not for everyone. I get to watch trains and get a feeling for what’s happening if things are going wrong.

And then there's a platform change, and you moan about having to drag yourself back up and down the other side

No, but there’s no real reason to have separate “lounges”. No other station has this design philosophy in the country. What’s wrong with one large train hall? That’s the least confusing of all designs for the average Brit.

It's kind of required by the station layout - 3 separate entrances on 3 sides, especially with the lift/escalator locations being difficult to move because of the pillars on the platforms. to have got all the platform entrances in one place would have required cutting the station up. I'm not sure if there would be room to circulate people around the edge with less retail, or if there are structural forms that stop a giant roundabout.

 

[irish_rail]

Correct!
For locals it's probably ok as they know it's layout and where to go. For large numbers of long distance passengers it's absolutely crap.

I know older people (not rail related) who absolutely refuse to change at BNS now due to the stress of the confusing layout. Someone really needs to take a look at untangling it.

 

[43096]

I know older people (not rail related) who absolutely refuse to change at BNS now due to the stress of the confusing layout. Someone really needs to take a look at untangling it.

Just demolish the whole place and start again.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know older people (not rail related) who absolutely refuse to change at BNS now due to the stress of the confusing layout. Someone really needs to take a look at untangling it.

You need just one piece of information to make it as nice to change at as any other station. That is, go to the B end.

It just needs better signing so people only use the A end to enter and exit to/from the street. Which is what most people are doing, so it is not a capacity issue.

Just demolish the whole place and start again.

Too disruptive. The only viable proposal for a new station was Heartlands, but it was a rubbish idea as it was well out of town.

 

[takno]

I know older people (not rail related) who absolutely refuse to change at BNS now due to the stress of the confusing layout. Someone really needs to take a look at untangling it.

Barnes doesn't have a particularly confusing layout does it?

 

[BJames]

Merseyrail and Elizabeth line are the most punctual operators in the country.

Therefore we should all learn from their method of operating.

I'm sure GWR will be rushing to implement 15 minute services on the Cornwall branch lines to connect perfectly with the arrivals from London (hint: some of these are single track from start to end - it is simply not possible!) At the risk of repeating verbatim what others have said in other threads, not every part of the country works in the same way.

While it is true that people would rather have a through train/better connection times, it's simply not possible to please everyone. More facilities/pleasant waiting environments will definitely go a long way to helping people feel a bit more comfortable, and definitely keep staff presence up at night (it was reassuring with disruption Grantham to Nottingham to have staff around to talk to all of us). I think people just dislike changing trains at places with long walks (e.g. Nottingham depending on where you are coming in to and going from) or confusing to out of towners (Birmingham NS as mentioned) so if they have a) an alternative place to change at or b) clear directions of where they are going (and possibly like airports how long the walk will take?) they may be happier. Or they may not. You can't please everyone. There are definitely workable techniques that I'm sure people will think of but it all comes back to that pesky Treasury

 

[swt_passenger]

Barnes doesn't have a particularly confusing layout does it?

I remember a sign saying something like “all trains use this platform for Waterloo Mon - Sat, other platform on Sundays”. Never worked out why…

 

[Trainfan344]

Every Train should call at every station.

The next train to depart platform 10 is for Norwich.

Calling at Stratford, Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park, Ilford, Severn Kings, Chadwell Heath, Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood, Brentford, Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Hatfield Perveral, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Mannigtree, Ipswich, Needham Market, Stowmarket, Diss and Norwich.

Only about 17 extra stops...

London to Glasgow an extra 30 stops..

Imagine the sleeper calling at every station!

 

[xotGD]

every second spent on the trip is wasted productivity for the employer

Not true at all. Most folk travelling on business get plenty of work done on the train.

However, having to change trains disrupts the work flow. That's where the wasted productivity kicks in.

 

[miklcct]

Every Train should call at every station.

The next train to depart platform 10 is for Norwich.

Calling at Stratford, Maryland, Forest Gate, Manor Park, Ilford, Severn Kings, Chadwell Heath, Romford, Gidea Park, Harold Wood, Brentford, Shenfield, Ingatestone, Chelmsford, Hatfield Perveral, Witham, Kelvedon, Marks Tey, Colchester, Mannigtree, Ipswich, Needham Market, Stowmarket, Diss and Norwich.

Only about 17 extra stops...

I would say that every journey on the same physical line should be possible by either a direct train, one change, or two changes in slow-fast-slow format.

For example, the fast trains on South Western Main Line call at London Waterloo, Clapham Junction, Woking, Basingstoke, Southampton Airport Parkway, Southampton Central, Brockenhurst, Bournemouth... Therefore, a stopper needs to be available covering all stations from Clapham Junction to Woking, from Woking to Basingstoke, from Basingstoke to Southampton Airport Parkway, ...

This is currently violated by the Waterloo - Woking stopper skipping stations between Wimbledon and Surbiton, or the Southampton - Bournemouth stopper skipping Millbrook and Redbridge. As a result, a journey from Redbridge to Berrylands now end up with 3 changes at Southampton Central, Woking and Surbiton.

Similar problems at other lines include:
Elizabeth line trains to Reading skipping some stations on the relief line, resulting in 2 changes needed from Bristol Parkway to Hanwell (Reading and Hayes & Harlington). This can be fixed by Elizabeth line trains always calling at all stations between Paddington and Reading.
EMR trains running non-stop from St Pancras all the way beyond every Thameslink train terminates, resulting in 4 changes needed from Hendon, changing at St Albans, Bedford, Kettering and Leicester in order to reach East Midlands Parkway. This needs to be fixed by EMR calling all their trains at Luton Airport Parkway and Bedford, and Thameslink calling all their slow line trains at Kentish Town, Cricklewood and Hendon and extending the St Albans terminators to Luton, such that the change to EMR can be made at Luton Airport Parkway.

 

[zwk500]

I would say that every journey on the same physical line should be possible by either a direct train, one change, or two changes in slow-fast-slow format.

So many problems with this. Not the least of which is that as everything is connected in a giant network, where does 'the same physical line' start? Is Maidenhead on the same line as Oxford or Newbury, for instance?

As a result, a journey from Redbridge to Berrylands now end up with 3 changes at Southampton Central, Woking and Surbiton.
resulting in 2 changes needed from Bristol Parkway to Hanwell (Reading and Hayes & Harlington).
resulting in 4 changes needed from Hendon, changing at St Albans, Bedford, Kettering and Leicester in order to reach East Midlands Parkway.

Can we be serious, how many people are actually making these journeys? And you said yourself 2 changes was acceptable. Hendon to EMP is possible in 1 change, at St Pancras.

I agree there are some lines where a couple of extra stops in fast trains would dramatically improve connectivity (Redhill in Brighton trains, Bedford in EMR long-distance) but there's either no capacity or the train is better utilised for moving people to London as quickly as possible. Usually both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree there are some lines where a couple of extra stops in fast trains would dramatically improve connectivity (Redhill in Brighton trains, Bedford in EMR long-distance) but there's either no capacity or the train is better utilised for moving people to London as quickly as possible. Usually both.

One example of this happening - all* LNR trains that pass Bletchley other than the Trent Valley will, from December, call there (and the connections with the Marston Vale are very good too). Probably makes staff changes easier too. I suspect EWR may have something to do with this.

* Unless that odd example of an "all stations except Bletchley stopper" on a Sunday evening still exists.

 

[zwk500]

One example of this happening - all* LNR trains that pass Bletchley other than the Trent Valley will, from December, call there (and the connections with the Marston Vale are very good too). Probably makes staff changes easier too. I suspect EWR may have something to do with this.

* Unless that odd example of an "all stations except Bletchley stopper" on a Sunday evening still exists.

I was responding to a post talking specifically about changing for trains on the same line. Stopping at Bletchley doesn't really give anything MKC didn't already for traffic entirely within the WCML. EWR is almost certainly the driver for it.

Out of interest, how many additional trains per hour is that now at Bletchley, and does the Southern no longer go beyond Watford?

 

[takno]

I agree there are some lines where a couple of extra stops in fast trains would dramatically improve connectivity (Redhill in Brighton trains ...

Redhill isn't on the fast route to Brighton

 

[zwk500]

Redhill isn't on the fast route to Brighton

I'm aware. Hence why the stop doesn't get put in. An Awkward quirk of railway geography, like EWR being forced to skip MKC for Oxford-Bedford trains.

 

[Trainbike46]

The main thing would be to build the timetable around connections that people make (using both information from ticket sales as well as by looking at the map with some common sense).

To some extend this clearly happens already; branch lines tend to have services timed to connect to mainline services. However, the fact that each mainline appears to mostly be timetabled *in isolation* makes timetabling things like TPE and XC services much harder, and makes offering good connections much harder too. I think we have to look at the railway network as a whole a lot more than currently happens for timetabling purposes.

Another thing that would help is to ensure each connection is offered at level access (via lifts, ramps etc.), so that someone who can't do stairs can still make connections.

 

[miklcct]

So many problems with this. Not the least of which is that as everything is connected in a giant network, where does 'the same physical line' start? Is Maidenhead on the same line as Oxford or Newbury, for instance?

Can we be serious, how many people are actually making these journeys? And you said yourself 2 changes was acceptable. Hendon to EMP is possible in 1 change, at St Pancras.

I agree there are some lines where a couple of extra stops in fast trains would dramatically improve connectivity (Redhill in Brighton trains, Bedford in EMR long-distance) but there's either no capacity or the train is better utilised for moving people to London as quickly as possible. Usually both.

St Pancras is out of the direct line between Hendon and East Midlands Parkway and involves approximately 25 km of extra distance compared to going direct.

Similarly, going from Harpenden still requires 3 changes on the direct line as well (Luton, Kettering, Leicester).

 

[BrianW]

The main thing would be to build the timetable around connections that people make (using both information from ticket sales as well as by looking at the map with some common sense).

To some extend this clearly happens already; branch lines tend to have services timed to connect to mainline services. However, the fact that each mainline appears to mostly be timetabled *in isolation* makes timetabling things like TPE and XC services much harder, and makes offering good connections much harder too. I think we have to look at the railway network as a whole a lot more than currently happens for timetabling purposes.

Another thing that would help is to ensure each connection is offered at level access (via lifts, ramps etc.), so that someone who can't do stairs can still make connections.

If only it were that easy it would be in place? eg to base connections around XC or Birmingham New Street. What service(s) do passengers change out of and into, and in what direction(s)? How long for a connection? Late running? I seem to remember electrification of the WCML brought the suggestion of 'coordination' of the Heart of England at New Street; and maybe at Tamworth?

I agree with those that find missing 'connections' and standing waiting at a platform 'bus shelter' unattractive. Best 'answer' maybe shorter waits (max 10/15 mins?). Toilets? Maybe tea-room?? All unlikely- indeed maybe longer waits for longer trains in the current economics.

When I lived in Stroud I missed many an evening 'connection' off XC at Cheltnham, the train having left to make the connection at Swindon for the far more numerous London-bound folk. I took to driving between Stroud and Cheltenham.

I tend to the view that if there's sufficient 'demand' (however it may be determined) trains will go direct between them without changing. It must be near impossible to fill every slot along a 'route' if trains are turning on and off it- rather as the Ordsall Chord tends to show? Straight 'up-and-down' services like London tube lines with passengers changing (often quite long walks; admittedly most often without luggage!) offer efficiency.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One key thing is that if you're surveying about what connections should be maintained, you want to be asking people who are NOT travelling by train, not those who are! Those who are have already deemed the connectional situation acceptable enough to buy.

Useful "big data" might be based around stuff like searches on timetable/sales sites for connectional journeys that do not convert into sales.

 

[Trainbike46]

If only it were that easy it would be in place? eg to base connections around XC or Birmingham New Street. What service(s) do passengers change out of and into, and in what direction(s)? How long for a connection? Late running? I seem to remember electrification of the WCML brought the suggestion of 'coordination' of the Heart of England at New Street; and maybe at Tamworth?

It's clearly not easy, and I wasn't intending to pretend it was. However, it would be a good way to make connections more attractive, and planning the timetable around connections is in fact what happens in countries that value connections more than the UK. To implement such a thing in the UK it would probably require redesigning the entire UK's timetable from the ground up (!)


Another way to improve connections is to increase frequency and have connections become better more by random chance than anything else. However, that is much more expensive

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 8 Nov 2022 ==

One key thing is that if you're surveying about what connections should be maintained, you want to be asking people who are NOT travelling by train, not those who are! Those who are have already deemed the connectional situation acceptable enough to buy.

Useful "big data" might be based around stuff like searches on timetable/sales sites for connectional journeys that do not convert into sales.

That's a good point; We clearly need multiple datapoints being considered for connections including:
- Current ticket sales
- Connections searched for but not sold
- Connections queried on sites such as google maps?
- Biggest flows in other transport modes (Flights/cars/coaches/etc.)

And a bit of common sense too. Clearly branch line trains should connect to the mainline service (and they mostly do!).

 

[miklcct]

Clearly branch line trains should connect to the mainline service (and they mostly do!).

It isn't even possible in both directions in the case of Lymington branch line!

For example, the last few trains from Lymington to Waterloo is a 30-minute wait at Brockenhurst on paper, but I'm not sure if in practice passengers can usually make the 0-minute unofficial connection there as it's not a cross-platform interchange.