How can we convey the calling pattern more efficiently?

[miklcct]

This explains the need to mark intercity / fast / semi-fast / local, like the rest of Europe (particularly in Germany) so that people won't get confused about the calling pattern of trains.

I'm all for train categories, but in the UK people mostly just read the calling points.

A major problem for the train here is that there can be wildly different calling patterns on the same line in a short section.

For example, between Southampton and Bournemouth it can be:
* non-stop (peak-hour trains)
* Brockenhurst only (non-peak fast trains)
* Brockenhurst, New Milton (Sunday fast trains)
* Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch, Pokesdown (non-peak semi-fast)
* Redbridge, Totton, Brockenhurst, New Milton, Christchurch (17:13 from Soton)
* Totton, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown (21:25 from Soton)
* Totton, Ashurst, Brockenhurst (22:51 from Soton which transfers to 23:16 from Brockenhurst for stops after Brockenhurst)
* Totton, Ashurst, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown (stoppers)
* Totton, Ashurst, Beaulieu Road, Brockenhurst, Sway, New Milton, Hinton Admiral, Christchurch, Pokesdown (stoppers w/ Beaulieu Road)

I have already found 9 different calling patterns for such a short section of the line. If I get to Southampton Central platform 4 and see a train there showing Bournemouth / Poole / Weymouth and I want Totton / Ashurst, I will need to see the calling list scrolls through the stations and it may take some time! Fortunately SWR trains have guards so I can just ask him if the train will call.

However, not all trains have guards. For example, I arrive at West Hampstead Thameslink platform 2 (slow line to the North) and want Cricklewood, and there is a train standing at the platform. The destination is meaningless to me as Cricklewood is just the next station down the line and I literally have to stand at the platform-train interface to hear the calling announcement (calling at: ...), and enter the train if the first station is Cricklewood, and return to the platform if not.

I am not confident in entering trains without the full list of calls. In contrast, on the London Overground where there is only a single calling pattern (all trains call at all stations), I can identify if the train is the one I want by one single piece of the information - the destination shown.

How can we convey the calling pattern more efficiently? For example, in the past, the 91, 92 and 93 on the Bournemouth line meant fast, semi-fast and slow respectively, but as shown above there are at least 9 calling patterns without any logics in them, so not all of them can fit into the 91, 92 and 93 models. Also, if the train doesn't call, how can we communicate effectively that the passenger should board and change, or wait for the next train? For example, from Woking to Winchester or beyond, under some situations we should change at Basingstoke, but sometimes we should wait for the next direct train and not board the Basingstoke train.

 

[Dr Hoo]

‘Next direct train’ or ‘Next fastest train’ displays can be a big help, e.g. at Manchester Piccadilly. However these can get quite unwieldy at stations with a wide range of routes. They are also beyond the scope of a single screen and impractical to replicate all over the place.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The traditional reason to need messy calling patterns was peaky flows. If the future is a leisure railway, then the answer to that is a consistent timetable (i.e. a Takt) then things like route numbers, train categories etc work perfectly. Nobody thinks you need a list of calling points for your bus on the display at the stop because a given number of bus always does the same ones.

 

[RT4038]

Nobody thinks you need a list of calling points for your bus on the display at the stop because a given number of bus always does the same ones.

I don't think that is necessarily correct - many bus routes have all sorts of mid route variations which all work under the same number.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think that is necessarily correct - many bus routes have all sorts of mid route variations which all work under the same number.

Good bus operators do this by way of a prefix/suffix on the number. There are some that do it without one, but there is no good reason to do that and it is confusing and so shows contempt for the passenger.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Good bus operators do this by way of a prefix/suffix on the number. There are some that do it without one, but there is no good reason to do that and it is confusing and so shows contempt for the passenger.

This is veering off thread but it is certainly the case that many bus routes around here seem to have route variations (e.g. for schools and hospitals purposes) 'hidden' under a generic route number.

The point being that 'vague' intermediate 'behaviour/outcome' is not just a rail issue.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The traditional reason to need messy calling patterns was peaky flows. If the future is a leisure railway, then the answer to that is a consistent timetable (i.e. a Takt) then things like route numbers, train categories etc work perfectly. Nobody thinks you need a list of calling points for your bus on the display at the stop because a given number of bus always does the same ones.

You’re missing one of the biggest reasons for calling pattern variants is schools/college traffic (which also affects buses). This traffic has not been affected by covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’re missing one of the biggest reasons for calling pattern variants is schools/college traffic (which also affects buses). This traffic has not been affected by covid.

No, I'm not missing that at all. My old local route (now withdrawn) used to have a school variant. The all-day route was 7, the school variation was 7A. It's not hard.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

No, I'm not missing that at all. My old local route (now withdrawn) used to have a school variant. The all-day route was 7, the school variation was 7A. It's not hard.

Some lines can have massive variations for the schools in the afternoon. The Pompey Direct is a casing point with 1Ps picking up a whole host of additional stops (different in each train) which might seem a bit random but is suited to the school traffic without the expense of additional 2P services.

 

[miklcct]

I don't think that is necessarily correct - many bus routes have all sorts of mid route variations which all work under the same number.

It's normally either periodic (e.g. morning this way / evening another way) or just a simple diversion with a few additional stops without affecting passengers on the main route (and those requiring the diversion will need the timetable).

Otherwise it'll be some letter suffix. It's nowhere as messy as the railway.

 

[RT4038]

Good bus operators do this by way of a prefix/suffix on the number. There are some that do it without one, but there is no good reason to do that and it is confusing and so shows contempt for the passenger.

What a slap down answer! Some bus routes, particularly in more rural areas, have 10 or more variants - more confusing for the public to learn all these different numbers / letters than to know the timetable! It is horses for courses - which bus number do I need - oh 27, 27A, 27C, 27D or 27G, or the number 27 trips leaving at 9h10, 11h30, 16h15, 17h15 and 19h00?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some lines can have massive variations for the schools in the afternoon. The Pompey Direct is a casing point with 1Ps picking up a whole host of additional stops (different in each train) which might seem a bit random but is suited to the school traffic without the expense of additional 2P services.

DB does have odd ones like that, it's usually done by still calling it a RE2 (or whatever) with "calls additionally at X" on the display. The key is that it still does all the stops that a RE2 normally would, so nobody can really be confused by it (and the schoolkids know which train they get every day).

What a slap down answer! Some bus routes, particularly in more rural areas, have 10 or more variants - more confusing for the public to learn all these different numbers / letters than to know the timetable! It is horses for courses - which bus number do I need - oh 27, 27A, 27C, 27D or 27G, or the number 27 trips leaving at 9h10, 11h30, 16h15, 17h15 and 19h00?

"Anything with a 4 in it" was a very common way of expressing what bus you needed from Manchester to Owen's Park when I was a student! So in this case you'd say "any 27, doesn't matter what letter".

If that doesn't express it properly (i.e. you've got a load of routes all numbered 27 that don't have an awful lot in common), it's too complicated and needs to be simplified.

 

[duncombec]

I often think the average passenger is more able to cope with public transport than some people seem to think they are, whilst also not being experts in the minutiae as some are here.

In my experience, most people who use buses and trains fairly regularly will pick up on a particular pattern, and be able to tune in or out as appropriate: subject to peak hour differences, I can tell the rest of the stopping pattern once a certain point is reached - if it serves Sole Street, it will also serve Meopham, Longfield, Farningham Road, Swanley and St Mary Cray before Bromley (and I think still Denmark Hill afterwards). If it serves Meopham as the first call, it will serve Longfield and Bromley South only. In the other direction, if I'm going to say, Birchington, I can stop listening after [...] Faversham, Chestfield [...], because that renders it a stopping service - if it's [...] Faversham, Whitstable [...] when it won't. I'd imagine that was the case with many of the OP's examples.
As for the West Hampstead/Cricklewood option, checking tomorrow at noon (on Realtimetrains), 4 of the 6 trains an hour serve Cricklewood, all terminating at St Albans. The two that don't are the Bedford and Luton service. Surely all you need is to check the destination?

Suffix letters or labels can easily be more trouble than they are worth: I will have a live experience next week when I shall try at least one of Southern Vectis' three two-routes-in-one operations, and see how many 'get confused'. I don't think SV are generally considered to be a company that is "bad" or "shows contempt for its passengers" (except perhaps for the price!). The destination display is key here - a local example sees a bus run "fast" every two hours, returning "slow" and the alternate hour is the other way - "slow" up, "fast" back. They deal with this very effectively by the "fast" buses showing "Grain" as a destination, and the "slow" buses showing "Allhallows and Grain". I don't think it took very long for passengers to work out if it don't say it, it ain't going. Didn't need a new route number out of pure pedantry. By contrast, another local route has a separate route number for short workings, despite the fact it is exactly the same as the longer variant.

I fear we are in enthusiast pedantry here (again), rather than trying to solve an existential problem - I can't imagine users will flock to the railways (or buses) because we've ironed a few stops out and given our train a pretty name.

 

[miklcct]

As for the West Hampstead/Cricklewood option, checking tomorrow at noon (on Realtimetrains), 4 of the 6 trains an hour serve Cricklewood, all terminating at St Albans. The two that don't are the Bedford and Luton service. Surely all you need is to check the destination?

Sometimes it's the Luton service which calls at Cricklewood, but the St Albans service doesn't - the last time I used the service I had to let the St Albans train go.

BR Times - Train Times & Station Platform Finder

Alternative journey planner featuring full schedule details including platforms and connection times, for every passenger train on the National Rail network.

www.brtimes.com

I can't see a pattern here.

 

[RT4038]

"Anything with a 4 in it" was a very common way of expressing what bus you needed from Manchester to Owen's Park when I was a student! So in this case you'd say "any 27, doesn't matter what letter".

If that doesn't express it properly (i.e. you've got a load of routes all numbered 27 that don't have an awful lot in common), it's too complicated and needs to be simplified.

Well no, because the 27B, 27E, 27F and 27H don't go to your stop/village. This network may be complicated, but it probably does save unnecessary mileage and carting people all around on every journey [ via XYZ school even in holidays etc], or even strip some of service, 'just to simplify the route'. Sometimes, one route number covering a multiplicity of routes and short workings is the simplest economical way, and the reference has to be the timetable. Certainly used to be plenty of rural German bus routes like that e.g. Route 9150 Augsburg-Schrobenhausen in Summer 1982! maybe still?

However, this approach would most likely not be the right one on frequent urban / inter-urban type routes. Horses for courses and all that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well no, because the 27B, 27E, 27F and 27H don't go to your stop/village. This network may be complicated, but it probably does save unnecessary mileage and carting people all around on every journey [ via XYZ school even in holidays etc], or even strip some of service, 'just to simplify the route'. Sometimes, one route number covering a multiplicity of routes and short workings is the simplest economical way, and the reference has to be the timetable. Certainly used to be plenty of rural German bus routes like that e.g. Route 9150 Augsburg-Schrobenhausen in Summer 1982! maybe still?

However, this approach would most likely not be the right one on frequent urban / inter-urban type routes. Horses for courses and all that.

Every rule requires an exception is the saying, I guess. The Vectis West Wight service is probably another one (yes, I've used it).