How can the Stranraer line be made more useful/less useless?

[Bletchleyite]

While reassuring that 0.5tph is still possible post-rationalisation, I would be quite surprised if it actually happens. Maybe if there's a surplus of trains in the 156 replacement order. Would make the railway an actually useful service, since it'd match Citylink in frequency and speed while offering a potentially* more comfortable ride (with a bit of a price markup).

I think once you get below hourly it depends on how useful the timings are for purposes people would use it. The question would be what those purposes are. Along these lines a while back I came up with a Conwy Valley timetable that actually had one fewer round trip than the line has at present with its blind 3 hourly clockface service but was arguably more useful because each trip was designed to serve a specific purpose.

Blind clockface at low frequencies tends to result in you having a usefully timed commuter service in only one direction, for example. The Conwy Valley suffers from that; the gap was traditionally plugged with a "permanent RRB" but no longer is.

What are the use cases for this line? (Please don't answer "none" - it's quiet but there clearly *is* a use case otherwise nobody at all would use it, and whether it should close is out of scope for this thread).

As for the general question I think moving the station to the land off the pier with a decent car park is pretty critical. A single 4 car platform would do, I'd envisage something looking a bit Morecambe esque but minus the booking office building and second line, and cars parked next to it with the line on the other side.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

As for the general question I think moving the station to the land off the pier with a decent car park is pretty critical. A single 4 car platform would do, I'd envisage something looking a bit Morecambe esque but minus the booking office building and second line, and cars parked next to it with the line on the other side.

Why minus the booking office building?

Stranraer would require a ticket office building (even if it doesn’t have a staffed ticket window) - as it is a train crew depot it requires the cash handling facilities of a ticket office to pay the money in from conductors.

It would also need the train crew facilities replicated from the current station in terms of mess facilities, locker-rooms etc.

That is unless the intention is to keep the facilities at the existing station.

 

[Farigiraf]

Distance/time from Newton Stewart to Barrhill and Stranraer is roughly the same. Remarkably, there’s a bus stop right outside Barrhill station, but it would have to reverse back to the main road from the station.

Stranraer to Barrhill is about 30 minutes by train though. For reference: Newton Stewart to Glasgow via Dumfries takes 4h, via Stranraer would take 3h 20, via Barrhill would take 2h 40. This is using current bus journey times and a 15 min connection time at rail stations.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why minus the booking office building?

Stranraer would require a ticket office building (even if it doesn’t have a staffed ticket window) - as it is a train crew depot it requires the cash handling facilities of a ticket office to pay the money in from conductors.

It would also need the train crew facilities replicated from the current station in terms of mess facilities, locker-rooms etc.

That is unless the intention is to keep the facilities at the existing station.

Ah, I didn't realise it was a crew depot (I'll be honest, I'm astonished it is!). In that case a building would be required for that purpose, but I'd struggle to justify a staffed booking office - this line, to survive, really needs to keep costs as far down as possible. Having said that if there needs to be a clerk there for that purpose they might as well also sell tickets.

Does it need to be a crew depot? Could some other arrangement be put in place that is cheaper to operate, such as crews booking on by telephone and paying in takings at Ayr or elsewhere? Could it even move to be operated from Ayr when the present crew based at Stranraer retire or otherwise move on? Presumably all this would happen if it did close.

 

[NCT]

Build a new town at Stranraer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Build a new town at Stranraer.

It'd be an economic failure. New Towns only succeed where there is good employment. Compare how Milton Keynes/Peterborough/Stevenage have done better than Skem/Peterlee etc due to proximity to London.

There are sensible New Town sites nearer Glasgow e.g. the old IBM site, but not really Stranraer.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Electrify to Girvan (from Ayr and via Kilmarnock) and run Girvan to Stranraer as a DMU / battery shuttle. No need for train crew facilities etc. at Stranraer.

Move the station 'inland' and tidy up the waterfront with a park / marina or something - the former lorry park is currently a wasteland.

 

[Transilien]

Electrify to Girvan (from Ayr and via Kilmarnock) and run Girvan to Stranraer as a DMU / battery shuttle. No need for train crew facilities etc. at Stranraer.

I would extend 1tph to Ayr via Kilwinning to Girvan, much faster than going via Kilmarnock. The Kilmarnock trains could terminate at Ayr instead.

 

[mmh]

There are sensible New Town sites nearer Glasgow e.g. the old IBM site, but not really Stranraer.

I'm going to guess you've never been to Cumbernauld or Irvine!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm going to guess you've never been to Cumbernauld or Irvine!

Can't say I have...what is the point you're making about them? My understanding was that the Scottish New Towns largely shared the social problems of the North West and North East ones for the same reasons as they exist there, but that the South East ones largely don't.

 

[mmh]

Can't say I have...what is the point you're making about them? My understanding was that the Scottish New Towns largely shared the social problems of the North West and North East ones for the same reasons as they exist there, but that the South East ones largely don't.

That they're notorious dumps. I don't see why a new, err, new town at IBM would be any different. If you're going to live in a dump and commute to Glasgow you may as well live in one of Glasgow's own dumps and save a bit of time.

Also I'd point out that a large amount of people consider Milton Keynes, Stevenage, Harlow as dumps too, so the South East isn't immune from this too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That they're notorious dumps. I don't see why a new, err, new town at IBM would be any different. If you're going to live in a dump and commute to Glasgow you may as well live in one of Glasgow's own dumps and save a bit of time.

Also I'd point out that a large amount of people consider Milton Keynes, Stevenage, Harlow as dumps too, so the South East isn't immune from this too.

I think I'd separate "concrete jungle" (they are all in a certain sort of style) from "place with major social problems" though. MK of course has some dodgy estates but what medium sized city doesn't?

Either way, Stranraer isn't a suitable location for one economically.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Stranraer isn't a suitable location for one economically.

Maybe once we're building HS14* with a tunnel or bridge to Northern Ireland since it'll probably be the best staging point
But that'll be some centuries off yet.


* Alternative numbers are available

 

[Bletchleyite]

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train. (The small risk of the cash being nicked in a house break-in or similar must surely be less costly than the cost of having a traincrew depot with dedicated staffing there).

 

[WAB]

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train.

I imagine there was more work at the depot historically.

 

[Gloster]

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train. (The small risk of the cash being nicked in a house break-in or similar must surely be less costly than the cost of having a traincrew depot with dedicated staffing there).

In BR days there was sufficient work for a 350 hp. to be based there to shunt the sleepers and the odd loco hauled trains. There could be up to four or five freights in either direction, mostly to the old Town station where Stockton Haulage had a terminal, but trains of new cars were handled at Harbour. The traffic was mostly for Northern Ireland and was transshipped at Stranraer.

 

[cactustwirly]

I think I'd separate "concrete jungle" (they are all in a certain sort of style) from "place with major social problems" though. MK of course has some dodgy estates but what medium sized city doesn't?

Either way, Stranraer isn't a suitable location for one economically.

My understanding is that Stevenage and Harlow have social problems.

Would be interesting to compare crime rates of MK versus somewhere like Reading

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Tuesday at 17:43 ==

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train. (The small risk of the cash being nicked in a house break-in or similar must surely be less costly than the cost of having a traincrew depot with dedicated staffing there).

One would assume yes.

Obviously Sealink was bought by Stena and have moved out of Stranraer, it's use as a rail and sail is very limited these days.

Now there is easyJet it is much cheaper to fly from London to Belfast rather than sleeper train and ferry.

Birkenhead to Belfast is relatively recent, within the last 25 years and is booming. Stena buying brand new ships significantly bigger for Birkenhead, whereas Cairnryan gets smaller ships

 

[Falcon1200]

Ah, I didn't realise it was a crew depot (I'll be honest, I'm astonished it is!).

Would imagine that Stranraer remains a Traincrew Depot because the first departure is at 0704 and the last arrival is at 2300. Crewing these from the next nearest Depot, Ayr, would involve a lot of unproductive taxi time, or near-empty trains, if indeed the signalboxes are even open to allow a very early train from Ayr to Stranraer and a late one back.

Given the demise of the ferries at Stranraer it does seem logical to resite the station nearer the town, but spending the necessary money on such a basket case line would I think be very hard to justify.

 

[Bill57p9]

The first departure in a morning (0704) is the (token) through service to Glasgow (Central arrive 0939), via Kilmarnock. There are only very limited further education facilities in Stranraer so this train also offers access to both Ayr & Kilmarnock colleges (the other nearest* being Dumfries). The bus services from Stranraer are very slow.

There is no direct return equivalent.

The whole route operates an almost clockface timetable:

• 2 tph Glasgow Central <> Kilmarnock
• Sporadic Kilmarnock <> Ayr
• 1 tph Ayr <> Girvan
• Broadly 0.5tph Girvan <> Stranraer

The whole route could be a little more appealing through clock face timetabling, even if not every hour offers a service, and through the offer of through services rather than enforcing changes in Kilmarnock. Both of these are achievable without any additional resources and resilience could be retained by splitting the service if delayed.

Throwing a little extra crew resource (but no additional stock) into the mix, Girvan-Ayr-Kilmarnock-Glasgow could be clock face hourly. (Currently the trains from Girvan that terminate in Ayr wait for nearly an hour - the time taken to run to Kilmarnock and back).

I do agree though that electrifying through to Girvan and offering 1 tph through to Glasgow via Kilwinning would be a really good service offering and would likely have substantial positive impact on Girvan. Then a 0.5tph shuttle Girvan <> Stranraer.

Being brutal, I do however expect the line south of Girvan only to be saved by politics rather than any sensible business case: the business case is to replace it with express buses.

 

[Acathater]

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train. (The small risk of the cash being nicked in a house break-in or similar must surely be less costly than the cost of having a traincrew depot with dedicated staffing there).

You'll never get the unions to agree to staff taking cash home at end of shift.
You would be turning them into mugging targets

 

[TattenhamCnr]

I wonder whether there could be some value in a parkway station on the A75, just before the line turns northwards? I’m not sure it would attract huge numbers, but it might contribute a few thousand a year.

 

[CW2]

Electrify to Girvan, and close the railway south of there. The minimal population of Barrhill doesn't justify a rail service.

 

[MadMac]

You'll never get the unions to agree to staff taking cash home at end of shift.
You would be turning them into mugging targets

Long-standing police advice with regard to transportation of cash has been to vary times/routes: this would essentially give would-be robbers a schedule. Could ScotRail, in theory, stop accepting cash payments?

 

[WAB]

As an aside, does the presence of the crew depot there date from when it would have been a BR Sealink ferry and it would have dealt with both? It seems a really strange place to have one, rather akin to putting one at Blaenau Ffestiniog or Gunnislake or something. Ayr would seem to make a lot more sense, even if it meant crews living in Stranraer booked on by phone and cashed in in the morning if they'd worked the last train. (The small risk of the cash being nicked in a house break-in or similar must surely be less costly than the cost of having a traincrew depot with dedicated staffing there).

You'll never get the unions to agree to staff taking cash home at end of shift.
You would be turning them into mugging targets

Assuming that crew will still need to take PNBs at Stranraer, you'd need at least a small building with a messroom, kitchenette and lavatories. It would be a simple matter to install six small safes for each guard based there with cashing up done at a larger location. A simple small prefab building would suffice for this, although it gets a little more complex if you want to provide customer toilets and a waiting room.

I would be surprised if the crew were not already booking on by phone.

 

[MadMac]

I would be surprised if the crew were not already booking on by phone.

That’s something that’s largely been gotten away from after high-profile alcohol-related incidents, although I recognise that Stranraer is something of an “outlier“, at least in Scotland.

 

[WAB]

That’s something that’s largely been gotten away from after high-profile alcohol-related incidents, although I recognise that Stranraer is something of an “outlier“, at least in Scotland.

Depends where you are I guess. I know of some fairly large crew depots where the booking-on point is a landline phone to call a central point, and of course many FOCs have done away with crew depots in part or whole.

 

[Bill57p9]

If you want a pie-in-the-sky idea to make the line more useful, reinstating what was the Cairnryan Military Railway to connect the new ports to the mainline network would fit the bill.
Would never pass any BCR test though...

 

[Falcon1200]

rather than enforcing changes in Kilmarnock.

Passengers would normally change at Ayr for a faster service to and from Glasgow. Through services would be better but need BEMUs, or wiring to Girvan.

Being brutal, I do however expect the line south of Girvan only to be saved by politics rather than any sensible business case:

Yes, have to agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll never get the unions to agree to staff taking cash home at end of shift.
You would be turning them into mugging targets

In Stranraer?

Would agree if it was Manchester.

I wonder what the choice would be if it was that or redundancy/relocation to Ayr?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

In Stranraer?

Would agree if it was Manchester.

I wonder what the choice would be if it was that or redundancy/relocation to Ayr?

Taking business cash home wouldn’t be presented as an option - it falls foul of all the cash handling regulations / best practices.

There’s all sorts of issues with insurance liabilities too.