Removing season tickets would penalise a lot of the key workers who have no choice but to attend their workplace every day. It is unfortunate that those who want to work flexibly and can are having to pay a higher unit cost of travel but any reduction for them must not come at the cost of those who have no choice to travel daily.
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How can passengers be attracted to return to rail?
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Surely the 33% discount would more than cover the discount on seasons, don’t most key workers work shifts and are not always travelling at peak times.
bramling
Veteran Member
It makes me laugh hearing all the moaning about flexible season tickets. For those working shifts, they often find themselves with a season ticket which they don’t make full use of - either because a proportion of their journeys are during off-peak time period, or because at times they have to drive out of necessity (especially weekends, extreme times, when there’s engineering work, Christmas, etc).
But as soon as the precious nine-to-fivers get a taste of this it’s up in arms time!
In the Netherlands, trains are pretty expensive to use. And often very busy.
But their generally good punctuality, dawn til dusk clockface frequency and connections (both with other trains and with buses) which work almost all of the time, make using the train far more attractive a proposition.
But their generally good punctuality, dawn til dusk clockface frequency and connections (both with other trains and with buses) which work almost all of the time, make using the train far more attractive a proposition.
HSTEd
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In the long term Metro-ise everything possible - expand the existing metro and tram systems to the greatest possible degree to take over most local services.
Concentrate any available capital resources into extension of the existing metro/tram networks over Network rail infrastructure.
Concentrate any available capital resources into extension of the existing metro/tram networks over Network rail infrastructure.
My local to Paddington is 84 for a seven day season or 12 for each of 7 days , assuming one does not work weekends then 16.80 each day M/F. Anytime Return with railcard discount is 16.20 so saving 60p each day even more savings for those traveling less than 5 days. More revenue to the railway from the additional railcard sales this would generate.
Dai Corner
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In the short term, ensure stations and trains are immaculate throughout operating hours and staff appear genuinely pleased to see passengers.
How many of us would return to a shop, cafe or pub where rubbish or empty crockery was left lying around and staff were less than polite and helpful?
How many of us would return to a shop, cafe or pub where rubbish or empty crockery was left lying around and staff were less than polite and helpful?
...so they'd also benefit from flexi season tickets having a better fares offering...? Perhaps they have incorrectly been ignored previously.
Remember the 9 to 5-ers have the *choice* not to go to the office now (I know you hate that because it's apparently not "proper work", but that's reality now and it ain't going away). And price is going to be a key factor in that choice - £30/40 per day out of your own pocket to go to the office from the Home Counties when you could save that by staying at home most days and do your job largely just as effectively....? Tough sell - that's why price matters.
(Flexi train season tickets are actually no use to me anyway, as I can walk to my office. I base my opinion on if I were doing a hypothetical London commute like I used to)
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miklcct
Established Member
If taking public transport is expensive than driving (here I mean the total cost of vehicle ownership / rental) there must be something seriously wrong, unless the car is always nearly fully loaded (i.e. if it is a family car where most travel is always with a family with 4, a car can be reasonably cheaper than public transport, but if the car is only mostly used by 1 or 2 people and it turns out to be cheaper than using public transport, there must be something seriously wrong)
Short term? Things like halving fares M-F.
But yes, flexible season tickets, carnets, sharing between couples etc should all be introduced. Ticketing is archaic and punitive.
Better integration with employers, for example more ability to buy pre-tax or incentivise employers to offer free/subsidised PT benefits. And penalise/charge for free company parking.
But yes, flexible season tickets, carnets, sharing between couples etc should all be introduced. Ticketing is archaic and punitive.
Better integration with employers, for example more ability to buy pre-tax or incentivise employers to offer free/subsidised PT benefits. And penalise/charge for free company parking.
I've got an idea, join it all back together and call it something like British Railways. Use a scythe and weed out all of the repetitive 'management', and only hire chief execs with proven records in the rail industry. Unify the timetable, provide enough comfortable and pleasant coaches and drop the fares. At weekends, why not try something 'new' like using idle commuter trains on heavily discounted trips to places people want to go?
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
bramling
Veteran Member
They have a choice so long as their employer allows them to, as opposed to feeling they can demand it off the back of it being "too dangerous" to travel.
As for this not going away, it I were a home counties nine-to-fiver in a job which can allegedly be done largely remotely, I'd be *very* keen to get back to the office ASAP. How long before employers discover that there will be someone with the same level of qualification and experience in, say, the north east, willing to do the same job on two thirds of the salary, to account for the way living costs would be a lot less in Newcastle or Darlington compared to somewhere like Cambridge or St Albans? I'd bet they'd get a better work ethic in many cases too.
I continue to be of the view that the best way the railway can attract people back is to simply offer a solid and reliable service with an element of quality. As you say, the office people are too busy dodging the workplace at the moment so there isn't much the railway can do to attract them back at this stage. They're better off going for the ones who *are* going to work and are currently using their cars. Judging by the way the roads are at the moment there's enough of those.
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irish_rail
On Moderation
Too sensible. Hang your head in shame.
philosopher
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The railways were in a similarly tricky situation with falling passenger numbers in the early nineties. So in my view the railways should just do what they did in the late nineties to attract passengers back on the railways. From what I understand this involved mostly improving frequencies and improving seat comfort.
Restoring off peak timetables, particularly on weekends to pre Covid levels would be a good start.
Restoring off peak timetables, particularly on weekends to pre Covid levels would be a good start.
bramling
Veteran Member
Agreed. Running a full off-peak service with decent levels of capacity is the spring board for sure. Turning up to a short train isn't going to encourage people, many of whom are now used to and expect an element of space.
I have said in the separate thread that depending on circumstances, the phrase "so long as their employer allows them to" should not be regarded as implying employees have the upper hand in the decision. I gave the example of my wife who works in financial services and due to downsizing of office space in central London will not be permitted to attend the office more than two days per week once restrictions are lifted.
bramling
Veteran Member
Certainly an interesting example, and certainly adds a bit of weight to the notion that the decision will be for employers to make.
Some people seem very keen to present it as an "I'm an employee and I'm going to choose where and when I work from now on", and I think such people will find they've led a bit of a sheltered working life over the last 18 months, and all good things have to come to an end. This will also apply to those who think they will be able to go to the office every Tuesday-Thursday, and have every Monday/Friday off.
Like the 80% (or whatever it was) percent of the population who decreed they intended to take a holiday to Cornwall in 2021, reality will be rather different.
Kite159
Veteran Member
Reduce the cost of parking in certain station car parks to encourage more people to drive to the station and catch the train rather than driving all the way.
Ditch the passenger unfriendly ANPR cameras which only benefit the parking companies by catching people out.
Making sure any known busy trains are at the maximum length allowed, ie Southern on the coastway services
Ditch the passenger unfriendly ANPR cameras which only benefit the parking companies by catching people out.
Making sure any known busy trains are at the maximum length allowed, ie Southern on the coastway services
gingerheid
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Actually simplify ticketing.
(Either that or don't try and attract passengers back, but try and build freight capacity as quickly as possible!!!)
(Either that or don't try and attract passengers back, but try and build freight capacity as quickly as possible!!!)
notadriver
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agree with parking except reducing cost just encourages people to park there who aren’t using the train. Better to keep prices high with a valid train ticket giving automatic free parking.
Paul Jones 88
Member
Make ticketing much more simple.
Make stations more comfortable, no more standing on windswept platforms in the rain, have a simple waiting room with heating and vending machine.
Make the trains more comfortable, no more hard seats.
Increase security, stop certain stations being used as drug dens or thug clubs during the evening.
Bring back on train catering but not priced as if having lunch at the Ritz.
Have friendly staff around, like the station master at Ponders End in the 70s, lovely old bloke who encouraged my interest in the railway in the first place when I was a kid and would help my mum on to the carriage with my pram when I was a baby.
Make stations more comfortable, no more standing on windswept platforms in the rain, have a simple waiting room with heating and vending machine.
Make the trains more comfortable, no more hard seats.
Increase security, stop certain stations being used as drug dens or thug clubs during the evening.
Bring back on train catering but not priced as if having lunch at the Ritz.
Have friendly staff around, like the station master at Ponders End in the 70s, lovely old bloke who encouraged my interest in the railway in the first place when I was a kid and would help my mum on to the carriage with my pram when I was a baby.
Surely a better way is to discount the parking fee if you spend on rail fares. Like supermarkets do. Spend over a certain amount and get your parking charge back.
The two together railcard helps to a certain extent but doesn't really fix the problem. If you're only taking one or two journeys together per year, it might not be worth it to justify the £30 initial cost.
I'd love to take the train more often myself and would happily pay a little extra for the privilege if it suits, but most people wouldn't.
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I don't use a train to get to my workplace, but I would go back to using it for visiting family if I could get cheap advance tickets. It seems daft paying over £100 to get to Manchester and back when driving costs half that in fuel and I have greater freedom of movement whilst there (e.g. to go hiking in one of the national parks).
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That's a great idea although I think it has been tried before. It has the flaw that the government has to pay for it and people don't like tax rises, so what happens is the snip snip cost cutting comes into play and the services gradually decline in quality over time. Then someone has the equally brilliant idea of privatising it so that someone else spends the money, competition incites investment and improvement, and everyone knows the private sector do things better than the state, or something like that anyway.
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philosopher
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Based on a discussion in the December 2021 timetables thread, I think restoring all off peak services to pre Covid levels as soon as staffing issues allow should be a priority. Certain routes such as London to Birmingham, London to Chester / North Wales and some services around Sheffield and the East Midlands look like they will still significantly reduced from pre Covid levels until at least May 2022.
Significantly reduced frequencies is not going to help passenger numbers recover. If there is a train is every 30 minutes, missing a train by a minute may be just a nuisance, however if a train is every 60 minutes and that train then has standing room only, the passenger may decide it is better to drive next time.
Given the rail industry has very likely lost a considerable proportion of its commuter traffic, possibly for good, I think they need to be careful they do not drive leisure passengers away too due to significantly pared down frequencies and slowed down services from seemingly never ending ‘temporary’ timetables. If leisure demand is still subdued in two years perhaps then they look at reducing frequencies, but not now.
Significantly reduced frequencies is not going to help passenger numbers recover. If there is a train is every 30 minutes, missing a train by a minute may be just a nuisance, however if a train is every 60 minutes and that train then has standing room only, the passenger may decide it is better to drive next time.
Given the rail industry has very likely lost a considerable proportion of its commuter traffic, possibly for good, I think they need to be careful they do not drive leisure passengers away too due to significantly pared down frequencies and slowed down services from seemingly never ending ‘temporary’ timetables. If leisure demand is still subdued in two years perhaps then they look at reducing frequencies, but not now.
Something like the Dutch system where trains arrive and depart in parallel across an island platform with around four minutes dwell time so that passengers can connect both ways. It would need a lot of investment in infrastructure though.
ABB125
Established Member
Thorpe-le-Socken in Essex is the only example of this principle that I can think of in the UK, though it's not quite the same. The Colchester - Walton-on-the-Naze stopper arrives on one side of the island, then the London - Clacton fast train arrives on the other side as quickly as permitted by the signalling. This then departs, followed by the stopper. In this arrangement, the stopper has a dwell time of around 7-8 minutes.
NB: I've never actually been there, this is based on what I've read.
swt_passenger
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It wouldn’t be much use in the case of significant areas of the SE where weekly season discounts are in the area of 60-70% or more…
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Stop the "cram 'em in" approach. It appears the HS2 train spec (which is published somewhere) is quite good in terms of legroom, window alignment, table proportion etc, just like the 80x is. Get a table and a long journey on say XC can be a productive working environment - but not in an airline seat. So we need layouts more like the 80x or even the 397 which is almost all tables.
If the car is more comfortable than the train, the train loses.
(I guess a subset of this, "how to attract passengers to XC" would be "bin Voyagers and get some 80x", I suppose)
Add to that personally I would pay £10 a month by direct debit or possibly more for a National Railcard and this would make me travel by train more.
If the car is more comfortable than the train, the train loses.
(I guess a subset of this, "how to attract passengers to XC" would be "bin Voyagers and get some 80x", I suppose)
Add to that personally I would pay £10 a month by direct debit or possibly more for a National Railcard and this would make me travel by train more.
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