How can Moscow afford so many electric buses?

[johncrossley]

According to

Electric buses in Moscow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Moscow now has the largest electric bus fleet in Europe.

Mosgortrans operate the largest electric bus fleet in Europe ahead of London's fleet.[1] There are over 2,100 electric buses operating in Moscow.[2][3] As of January 2024, they have carried over 400 million passengers.[4] As of July 2024, electric buses serve over 130 routes.[5] The fleet consist of over 1700 of KAMAZ-6282 and over 400 of LiAZ-6274. As well as electric minibuses.

How can they afford to replace their fleet so quickly whereas other countries, particularly the UK outside London, have barely started their electric bus rollout?

 

[yorksrob]

I would assume some sort of sweetheart deal with China.

 

[Segedunum]

I would assume some sort of sweetheart deal with China.

They're domestically produced from what I can see. Though labour rights and salaries are hardly going to be particularly award-winning.

 

[edwin_m]

Russia's energy supply is largely fossil-based, so while these buses may be improving air quality in Moscow they're not exactly a climate win.

 

[daodao]

Moscow scrapped its entire electric trolleybus network, then the largest in the world, only a few years ago, in part because the city authorities did not like the unsightly wires in one of the world's great cities. However, this was done on the premise that they would be replaced by battery electric buses, and it is good to note that this has been done, unlike in other capital cities where electric trolleybus networks have been scrapped, such as Wellington (New Zealand) and several in the former USSR, most recently Bishkek (Kyrgyzstan).

London scrapped its entire electric trolleybus network, then the largest in the world, in 1962, in part because the city authorities did not like the unsightly wires in one of the world's great cities, even though they never penetrated the most attractive well-to-do areas (the West End and inner west London) nor much of South London. They were all replaced by diesel buses, and only now are there substantial numbers of battery electric buses. It is only this year (2024) that fast-charging battery electric buses, using pantographs and charging stations at the termini, have started to be introduced (initially on route 358).

Most capital cities do have the advantage that their country's governments are generally willing to allocate a higher percentage of national transport expenditure (on a per capita pro rata basis) to what is their country's showcase to the world.

 

[duncombec]

It's probably also wise to look at the background:

The Moscow region energy supplier, Mosenergo, is, per Wikipedia, owned 53.5% by Gazprom and 26.4% by the City of Moscow. Gazprom is itself just over 50% state-owned.

Kamaz, the largest supplier of vehicles, is just under 50% owned by Rostec, a wholly state-owned company, whilst Liaz, the second-largest supplier, is ultimately owned by Oleg Deripaska, who until the invasion of Ukraine, was deemed friendly enough to the Russian government to be sanctioned.

I'd suggest it's reasonably easy to get what you want when the state has a significant hand in the supply of all of the relevant parts, so "affordability" in the UK sense is rather secondary.

 

[Towers]

It’ll be for similar reasons to why the Chinese can build you an electric bus next week, ship it half way around the world, and still undercut the Alexander Dennis factory half an hour up the road, presumably. Very different economics.

If Putin hadn’t started WW3 perhaps London would be full of these wretched things as well!

 

[yorksrob]

It does suggest perhaps that the West needs to return to more planning within its economic model.

The argument always used to be that planned economies were inefficient and couldn't get things done, whereas largely market based economies were dynamic and could. I'm not convinced that that holds true.

Of course, more economic planning doesn't have to come with the abhorrent authoritarian tendencies of China, Russia etc.

 

[RailWonderer]

It does suggest perhaps that the West needs to return to more planning within its economic model.

The argument always used to be that planned economies were inefficient and couldn't get things done, whereas largely market based economies were dynamic and could. I'm not convinced that that holds true.

Of course, more economic planning doesn't have to come with the abhorrent authoritarian tendencies of China, Russia etc.

I think it's a regulation thing. An overregulated free market economy will lag behind a top-down, less regulated planned economy. I'm not sure they do consultancy and a tendering process and all the procedure we have over here.

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's a regulation thing. An overregulated free market economy will lag behind a top-down, less regulated planned economy. I'm not sure they do consultancy and a tendering process and all the procedure we have over here.

Or indeed the vested interests of shareholder blocks, private equity, multinational corporations etc, who may not have the country's strategic interest as a priority.

 

[daodao]

It does suggest perhaps that the West needs to return to more planning within its economic model.

The argument always used to be that planned economies were inefficient and couldn't get things done, whereas largely market based economies were dynamic and could. I'm not convinced that that holds true.

Of course, more economic planning doesn't have to come with the abhorrent authoritarian tendencies of China, Russia etc.

A planned economy (as distinct from a regulated one) is per se an authoritarian economy, with policy implemented by diktat. A local example is the introduction of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, implemented under the guidance of the Socialist mayor, where TfGM dictates the routes, owns the depots, determines the operators and specifies the type of buses to be used. By contrast, the previous arrangement for bus services was a regulated one, with significant commercial freedom for operators within a strategy framework determined by TfGM.

 

[johncrossley]

A planned economy (as distinct from a regulated one) is per se an authoritarian economy, with policy implemented by diktat. A local example is the introduction of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, implemented under the guidance of the Socialist mayor, where TfGM dictates the routes, owns the depots, determines the operators and specifies the type of buses to be used. By contrast, the previous arrangement for bus services was a regulated one, with significant commercial freedom for operators within a strategy framework determined by TfGM.

Does that mean almost the whole developed world have authoritarian economies?

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

A planned economy (as distinct from a regulated one) is per se an authoritarian economy, with policy implemented by diktat. A local example is the introduction of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, implemented under the guidance of the Socialist mayor, where TfGM dictates the routes, owns the depots, determines the operators and specifies the type of buses to be used. By contrast, the previous arrangement for bus services was a regulated one, with significant commercial freedom for operators within a strategy framework determined by TfGM.

You omit one important detail - Andy Burnham is democratically elected with bus franchising a key part of his manifesto. He gained a huge majority, winning every ward in G.M.

 

[MotCO]

Is there also an issue that Russian exports have been restricted following its excursions into Ukraine, so to keep the factories occupied, they are producing goods for the home market.

 

[edwin_m]

A planned economy (as distinct from a regulated one) is per se an authoritarian economy, with policy implemented by diktat. A local example is the introduction of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, implemented under the guidance of the Socialist mayor, where TfGM dictates the routes, owns the depots, determines the operators and specifies the type of buses to be used. By contrast, the previous arrangement for bus services was a regulated one, with significant commercial freedom for operators within a strategy framework determined by TfGM.

The previous arrangement was a deregulated one, with TfGM having very little strategic control except by consent of the private operators, whose objective was to maximise profit not ridership. And when things settle in I'd expect Manchester to end up with more electric buses than would have been the case had deregulation continued.

 

[Gag Halfrunt]

Is there also an issue that Russian exports have been restricted following its excursions into Ukraine, so to keep the factories occupied, they are producing goods for the home market.

The Russian government is promoting import substiution as a way to blunt the impact of sanctions. They prefer to look on sanctions not as a problem but as a golden opportunity to revive domestic industry and take back control over the Russian economy as foreign companies lesve the Russian market.

 

[yorksrob]

A planned economy (as distinct from a regulated one) is per se an authoritarian economy, with policy implemented by diktat. A local example is the introduction of bus franchising in Greater Manchester, implemented under the guidance of the Socialist mayor, where TfGM dictates the routes, owns the depots, determines the operators and specifies the type of buses to be used. By contrast, the previous arrangement for bus services was a regulated one, with significant commercial freedom for operators within a strategy framework determined by TfGM.

An "authoritarian economy" is an interesting concept in itself. Even in a economy with a high degree of commercial freedom, the average person has little influence over what products and services are offered to them. Does that not make any economy "authoritarian" to most people ?

The buses are an interesting example. London is, by your argument the "authoritarian" example, whereas deregulation is the commercially free version. Most people feel that London has traditionally provided the better service.

 

[johncrossley]

The buses are an interesting example. London is, by your argument the "authoritarian" example, whereas deregulation is the commercially free version. Most people feel that London has traditionally provided the better service.

What is so special about London? There are countless examples of cities where buses are not deregulated.

 

[yorksrob]

What is so special about London? There are countless examples of cities where buses are not deregulated.

I said it's "an" example.

 

[johncrossley]

I said it's "an" example.

But by simply quoting one of the examples, you make it sound like London is a rare exception, and thus make it sound like deregulation is the norm. It would be easier to list the cities in the developed world that *do* have bus deregulation.

 

[The exile]

But by simply quoting one of the examples, you make it sound like London is a rare exception, and thus make it sound like deregulation is the norm. It would be easier to list the cities in the developed world that *do* have bus deregulation.

In the context of Great Britain, which is the one familiar to the majority of those on the forum (“familiar” as in “have long term experience of” rather than “used a couple of times when on holiday”) it most certainly is.

 

[johncrossley]

In the context of Great Britain, which is the one familiar to the majority of those on the forum (“familiar” as in “have long term experience of” rather than “used a couple of times when on holiday”) it most certainly is.

But such insularity is unhelpful as it leads people to think that the type of operation that is most common in reality is actually a quirky and highly risky thing to do, and therefore it shouldn't be considered.

 

[The exile]

But such insularity is unhelpful as it leads people to think that the type of operation that is most common in reality is actually a quirky and highly risky thing to do, and therefore it shouldn't be considered.

Not sure you’d find many people on here who would consider some degree of regulation of public transport as being either “quirky” or “risky” - but we’re getting dangerously off-thread.

 

[johncrossley]

Not sure you’d find many people on here who would consider some degree of regulation of public transport as being either “quirky” or “risky” - but we’re getting dangerously off-thread.

There's clearly someone on this thread who thinks that way! And the International Transport section is far more knowledgeable about what happens in the rest of the world compared to the main bus section, where I would say that at least 50% are pro deregulation. The prevailing view can only come from growing up and living in the UK. I'd be surprised if more than a tiny proportion of our international visitors think that UK style bus deregulation is a good idea.

 

[yorksrob]

But by simply quoting one of the examples, you make it sound like London is a rare exception, and thus make it sound like deregulation is the norm. It would be easier to list the cities in the developed world that *do* have bus deregulation.

I made an example of one system in the UK, that by @daodao 's argument would be economically authoritarian and another that wouldn't. Bringing in other examples would be irrelevant in that context.

 

[AlastairFraser]

They're domestically produced from what I can see. Though labour rights and salaries are hardly going to be particularly award-winning.

Most of them are, the battery factory firm is based in Serbia I think (Russian-founded, but exports products worldwide, hence the move to Serbia post-Ukraine war).
Fundamentally, as you said, costs are lower, and with the ownership as well, they can offer the products much closer to cost-price than a truly independent private enterprise could and would.

 

[mrmartin]

I would not be surprised if corruption is also part of this to some degree.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

When thinking about the UK, useful to recall that diesel buses are still better overall in cost terms.

Electric buses are cheaper to operate, but more expensive to buy and hence many (all?) electric bus purchases are being subsidised by central govenrment. So, it would be possible outside London/Manchester to have 'all-electric' fleets, if these support arrangements were widened.

Even if all buses were operated in the public sector, presumably most of the readers of this forum would still wish their managers to at least have an eye to the cost bearing in mind that where revenue is less than cost the difference has to be made up either council taxes or central government taxes....?

 

[Ghostbus]

Russia has vast natural resources, more so now we're not friends anymore, but the West is largely unable to stop them using this to generate cash in violation of sanctions. The real question is why they spent it on electric buses for Moscow, rather than weapons.

The answer is probably that a factory making electric buses can be very quickly converted to a factory making military drones. And a city in gainful employment is less likely to revolt and more likely to view political opposition as disrupting the worker driven march of Mother Russia into the Future.

 

[TRAX]

According to

Electric buses in Moscow - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Moscow now has the largest electric bus fleet in Europe.



How can they afford to replace their fleet so quickly whereas other countries, particularly the UK outside London, have barely started their electric bus rollout?

Did somebody tell you Russia is a third-world country or something ?
It’s not Western Europe…