How can CrossCountry realistically be improved?

[Bald Rick]

In the longer term, sextuple some of the London end to separate Elizabeth Line trains entirely from the Relief Lines.

From next year Elizabeth Line trains will be just about all there is on the relief lines!

And splitting everything at Birmingham - there isn’t the platform capacity to do that.

 

[ashkeba]

What's the alternative? Any other traction for these routes would need to be capable of 100mph, have SDO and able to use the SP speed differentials. Apart from new-build I can't think of anything else that currently matches that profile that does not share the same weaknesses as the Cl170 design.

More 755/4 Flirts? Why shouldn't XC get new trains more suitable for InterRegional/InterCity work? It always seems to be a Cinderella franchise. The hot poo smell would have been fixed on most routes long ago.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Why not? Because TfW can't run a solid service on the line and the Mk.4s really wouldn't work for the early morning services with all stops between Gloucester and Cardiff.

Plus why would the Welsh government run a service that mainly serves the Birmingham - Nottingham market the other side of New St, it's only a single service to make planning easier.

I said when TfW receive their own stock. Half the reason TfW have done so badly recently is because half their stock is being refurbished or is a complete basket case like the 769s. Why do you think 170s do any better with commuter service, MK4s have large vestibules for people just going one or 2 stops.
The Welsh government runs a service that exclusively serves Cheshire, so I don't think they'll have an issue running a service all the way up to Nottingham. They already run to Bham international.
The fact remains that an overwhelmingly intercity operator should not be running commuter service.

 

[Neptune]

The fact remains that an overwhelmingly intercity operator should not be running commuter service.

Try telling that to GWR.

 

[JonathanH]

The fact remains that an overwhelmingly intercity operator should not be running commuter service.

There are examples of intercity operators running commuter services on every single one of the trunk routes. It is a function of the size of this country and the relative proximity of settlements.

Having two operators on the Derby to Birmingham route would be a terrible return to problems that existed until 2007. The routes that Cross Country operate are not inner suburban in nature, they are regional services and frankly there isn't a lot if difference between the 170 and Voyager routes other than the latter link adjacent settlements over longer distances.

 

[HSTEd]

We don't really have clear differentiation between service types in Britain.

The island is much too small for that

 

[ashkeba]

We don't really have clear differentiation between service types in Britain.

The island is much too small for that

Or is it that thev network has been cut back too much for that? I am sure smaller countries differentiate InterCity and Local, often with Regional between or Peak as a hyper-local.

 

[Horizon22]

From next year Elizabeth Line trains will be just about all there is on the relief lines!

And splitting everything at Birmingham - there isn’t the platform capacity to do that.

Indeed already its just 2tph GWR from Didcot PW - Paddington. The whole Western route will be getting a major timetable rewrite anyway when Crossrail runs through.

Southampton - Birmingham services are very well loaded. It's a long enough distance calling at fairly major stations with good connections to be well patronised. Once HS2 starts there may be discussions on what this means for some XC routes through Reading.

As for the stock, bi-modes 80x (or equivalent style) would be fine in my view. The major issue is the stock that nobody seems to want to do anything about. It's shame its become the "everything else" franchise.

 

[AndyMike]

No doubt this will have already been covered, but the voyagers are horrific. Particularly in the summer. The stench. There is no masking it.

And they are far too short.

I go out of my way to try and avoid them if at all possible. There are no other trains I can say that of. They’re a horrible way to travel; even first class isn’t great. Far too little room, dreadful seating, inadequate luggage space, too often overcrowded at the best of times - and then there’s the smell.

 

[JonathanH]

The major issue is the stock that nobody seems to want to do anything about.

As pointed out in the thread about Southern's 455s, just because nothing is in the public domain about rolling stock it doesn't mean that discussions aren't ongoing. If discussions aren't ongoing, no amount of speculation is going to make them start because a conscious decision will have been made not to consider more rolling stock.

However, neither side is going to show its hand until the contracts are signed and it would be folly to enter into those contracts without fully assessing the knock on impacts on the overall costs of the operation.

At the very least, Cross Country needs to get back to the point where it can run the old timetable with 53 Voyager diagrams first and be bringing in the same revenue before thinking about any further changes.

There does seem to be a general perception that the increase in fleet is just going to happen because the rolling stock is available. I suspect it is far more nuanced than that and the subject of negotiations involving many more parties than DfT, CrossCountry and the leasing companies (and very much not in the public domain).

 

[mmh]

I go out of my way to try and avoid them if at all possible. There are no other trains I can say that of. They’re a horrible way to travel; even first class isn’t great. Far too little room, dreadful seating, inadequate luggage space, too often overcrowded at the best of times - and then there’s the smell.

As I always say whenever this comes up, anyone complaining about the passenger comfort on a Voyager has never travelled in coach D on a Virgin / Avanti one. The whole train is very pleasant, the main problem being some overly close seat spacing in the other coaches which aren't all table seats.

 

[XAM2175]

As I always say whenever this comes up, anyone complaining about the passenger comfort on a Voyager has never travelled in coach D on a Virgin / Avanti one. The whole train is very pleasant, the main problem being some overly close seat spacing in the other coaches which aren't all table seats.

That's of great comfort to people complaining about CrossCountry's examples.

 

[irish_rail]

That's of great comfort to people complaining about CrossCountry's examples.

I think the poster is pointing out that the XC fleet could be improved hugely if only money could be spent on them. I agree. With a decent refurb they'd be good for another 20 years. Maybe even get rid of some of the massive toilets, and replace them with smaller ones and some additional seats or luggage space.

 

[Austriantrain]

Moderator note: Split from

XC down from 9 coach to 4, packed and 1st Class not declassified

On a late running 7:57 XC service from Banbury heading south. 25 minutes late. Down from 9 coaches to 4. Jammed in the vestibule next to the First Class coach. First Class is largely empty with a total of 6 passengers. Announcements apologising for the overcrowding. Those asking if First...

www.railforums.co.uk

XC has been an issue for, what, 20 years now? There really needs to be a plan to fix it, even if it's just the 222s for now.

What would be wrong with resurrecting the pre-COVID timetable (XC should be less affected by changing travel patterns than many other TOCs) and try to increase capacity as much as possible by moving the remaining 221s and the 222s over as soon as they are freed by their successors?

And go on like this until HS2 phase 2a (or the remaining western arm of phase 2b) opens, when a general recast will be necessary anyway and the 22x will be much close to their expiry date?

I am aware that DfT and Treasury would have to ok it, but would there be any cheaper or more efficient alternative (except for maintaining the status-quo)?

 

[The Ham]

What would be wrong with resurrecting the pre-COVID timetable (XC should be less affected by changing travel patterns than many other TOCs) and try to increase capacity as much as possible by moving the remaining 221s and the 222s over as soon as they are freed by their successors?

And go on like this until HS2 phase 2a (or the remaining western arm of phase 2b) opens, when a general recast will be necessary anyway and the 22x will be much close to their expiry date?

I am aware that DfT and Treasury would have to ok it, but would there be any cheaper or more efficient alternative (except for maintaining the status-quo)?

Whilst there trains may well be slightly quieter (due to the reduction in commuters) their overall income (which is likely to be significantly from leisure travel) I would imagine would be fairly stable.

As statistically it's likely that leisure has (or at least at the end of November) reached about 100% of the 2019 passenger numbers due to commuter numbers have fallen by over 50%.

Obviously not as good a position as it could have been, but probably enough to justify the transfer of extra stock from TOC's getting new stock and almost certainly to reintroduce the pre Covid services (although whilst there's still ongoing concerns with new variants it could be argued that waiting until there's new rolling stock to reintroduce the extra frequencies could be sensible, although they would depend on how quick that is likely to be and if there's any noticeable gaps which would benefit from being filed in quickly).