How are fines for stopping at the 'wrong stop' enforced?

[175mph]

I've seen in Hull that on the city centre loop of Prospect Street, Albion Street and Carr Lane, the bus stops have a list of route numbers on the bus stop flag which are allowed to stop at that stop. For example, Prospect Street A, route numbers such as 121, 34, 104 etc and Prospect Street B 77, 3, 79 etc.

Although it's not an issue now, since all of the 350 runs no longer serve the city centre loop after leaving the interchange and now go from Park Street and out onto Anlaby Road, (where at most of the stops, any bus route numbers can stop at as far as I know) I know of one driver who says when he's done the 350 route back when it served the city centre loop of Prospect Street, Albion Street and Carr Lane, he'd often see people stood at the 'wrong stop' and he would have no choice but to go past them when they put their arm out for him to stop, even when it was the last bus back to Scunthorpe, then when they did eventually get back to Scunthorpe the following day, angrily complain he left them stranded.

I'm aware of London having a similar system in place for many, if not all of it's bus stops and many other places outside of London will have a similar system in place too, but when the driver said if he stops at a stop that does not have his route number on the flag, the council for that area, (in this case, Hull City Council) will issue the offending bus company with a fine, which I bet in turn will be deducted from the offending driver's wages.

Thing is though, how are these fines enforced? Do they have hidden APNR cameras at the stops focusing on the registration plate and the destination display, or do they have 'mystery shopper' style people secretly checking by waiting at the stops, and duly noting down any 'wrong stop' offenses?

 

[Geordie driver]

It's been a while since I drove buses and that was in Newcastle. I simply didn't stop at places where I wasn't meant to for the most part, if you wanted to get on my bus be at the right stop at the right time. I might have been a bit easier going late at night at times or when it was quiet.

Any complaint that I had not picked someone up who wasn't at a stop would just go in the bin. We might have a laugh about it.

I have never know a fine be issued for stopping at the wrong stop, there simply isn't the organization or structure, at least outside London. Might be an urban myth?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Councils do have the odd inspector but they are only really of relevance to tendered services, if there are any left!

 

[A0]

Councils do have the odd inspector but they are only really of relevance to tendered services, if there are any left!

But even if you go back to NBC days it was not clear cut. Because drivers employment contracts would have had a clause that you could only be booked by an official of your company. There's blog online from a former LT / LCBS driver who made the point that when London Country NW was taken over by Luton & District the L&D inspector based at Luton's complaints about early / later running had no authority because of those clauses in contracts.

 

[Robertj21a]

I've seen in Hull that on the city centre loop of Prospect Street, Albion Street and Carr Lane, the bus stops have a list of route numbers on the bus stop flag which are allowed to stop at that stop. For example, Prospect Street A, route numbers such as 121, 34, 104 etc and Prospect Street B 77, 3, 79 etc.

Although it's not an issue now, since all of the 350 runs no longer serve the city centre loop after leaving the interchange and now go from Park Street and out onto Anlaby Road, (where at most of the stops, any bus route numbers can stop at as far as I know) I know of one driver who says when he's done the 350 route back when it served the city centre loop of Prospect Street, Albion Street and Carr Lane, he'd often see people stood at the 'wrong stop' and he would have no choice but to go past them when they put their arm out for him to stop, even when it was the last bus back to Scunthorpe, then when they did eventually get back to Scunthorpe the following day, angrily complain he left them stranded.

I'm aware of London having a similar system in place for many, if not all of it's bus stops and many other places outside of London will have a similar system in place too, but when the driver said if he stops at a stop that does not have his route number on the flag, the council for that area, (in this case, Hull City Council) will issue the offending bus company with a fine, which I bet in turn will be deducted from the offending driver's wages.

Thing is though, how are these fines enforced? Do they have hidden APNR cameras at the stops focusing on the registration plate and the destination display, or do they have 'mystery shopper' style people secretly checking by waiting at the stops, and duly noting down any 'wrong stop' offenses?

I've never heard of anything similar to what you describe, it sounds more like a misunderstanding somewhere.

 

[PG]

The traffic commissioner for each area is able to impose sanctions on an operator of local bus services if the operator fails to operate the service as registered.

That could include failing to stop to pick up or drop off passengers at a particular stop.

In practice unless there was a steady stream of complaints over a period of time it's unlikely that a fine would result.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I've never heard of anything similar to what you describe, it sounds more like a misunderstanding somewhere.

Quite.

The TC can impose sanctions for not operating in line with the registration but think the OP is either mistaken or has been fed a line.

 

[Busaholic]

I'd be almost certain that this wasn't the case. Mention of London, where I'm not completely au fait with current arrangements but have some knowledge of past practices is, again, I've never heard of it and I'm pretty certain it would never have happened, or been threatened. As others have said, who's doing this deal of monitoring?

 

[matt_world2004]

Within London TfL contracted routes can stop at any stop because their registration is provided by TfL. There may be fines on the contract for not using the correct stop without good reason though

However routes on a London Service Permit can be fined for not using the correct stop.

Usually LSPs provide a list of alternative stops and stands that they may use during their registration process and can update these for disruption and other factors

In practice they are unlikely to get fined. Drivers of easybus are always slightly paranoid to see TfL staff at a stop though.(There were a few during the preparation for baker Street to go 2 way)

 

[Statto]

Merseytravel have staff at there bus stations who will fine drivers if they stopped at the wrong stop.

The old Hood Street Gyrotory[now Queen Square bus station] used to be fun until the early 90s with buses reguly stopping in the middle of the road to pick up passengers, if another bus was at/near the stand. It was also quite common to at the old Woodside bus station passengers would often board buses parked in the middle layover bay, at the old Pier Head passengers would regularly board buses in the layover areas, H&S would have a fit if they saw that practice today.

 

[jumble]

I'd be almost certain that this wasn't the case. Mention of London, where I'm not completely au fait with current arrangements but have some knowledge of past practices is, again, I've never heard of it and I'm pretty certain it would never have happened, or been threatened. As others have said, who's doing this deal of monitoring?

I did once have the pleasure of travelling on a bus in London that went off route When I asked the driver to let me off in a traffic jam not at a stop he refused
He did tell me that if I decided to press the emergency open button and jump off he could not stop me!
I still felt very uncomfortable doing this

 

[Goldfish62]

Quite.

The TC can impose sanctions for not operating in line with the registration but think the OP is either mistaken or has been fed a line.

Quite agree.

 

[Goldfish62]

Within London TfL contracted routes can stop at any stop because their registration is provided by TfL. There may be fines on the contract for not using the correct stop without good reason though

However routes on a London Service Permit can be fined for not using the correct stop.

Usually LSPs provide a list of alternative stops and stands that they may use during their registration process and can update these for disruption and other factors

In practice they are unlikely to get fined. Drivers of easybus are always slightly paranoid to see TfL staff at a stop though.(There were a few during the preparation for baker Street to go 2 way)

There aren't any fines for stopping at the wrong stop either on TfL contracted routes or LSP routes. It's a performance issue which would be raised with the operator if it's persistent.

 

[matt_world2004]

There aren't any fines for stopping at the wrong stop either on TfL contracted routes or LSP routes. It's a performance issue which would be raised with the operator if it's persistent.

There is for LSPs as they are paying for what stops they use

 

[carlberry]

Merseytravel have staff at there bus stations who will fine drivers if they stopped at the wrong stop.
.

I don't see how they would fine drivers without the agreement of their employers (and the union even).
However a better solution would be for Merseytravel to have staff to direct passengers to the correct stop if, usually for a reason beyond their control, a driver has had to use the wrong one.

 

[Geordie driver]

I have in the past been " booked" quotes few times for pulling onto the wrong stand in a bus station as my stand was occupied, just ignored the checky and never heard anymore about it.

 

[Goldfish62]

There is for LSPs as they are paying for what stops they use

No and no. There are no fines and LSP holders do not pay for the stops they use on public highway.

 

[Busaholic]

No and no. There are no fines and LSP holders do not pay for the stops they use on public highway.

That would be my understanding too.

 

[Busaholic]

I did once have the pleasure of travelling on a bus in London that went off route When I asked the driver to let me off in a traffic jam not at a stop he refused
He did tell me that if I decided to press the emergency open button and jump off he could not stop me!
I still felt very uncomfortable doing this

I don't blame you for feeling uncomfortable - I would too, even before my physical condition deteriorated to the extent it would now be foolish for me to do it. My last trip on a London bus, last year, was blighted by an unannounced huge detour and a similar request, although to be let off at the next available stop. He point blank refused, and said I'd have to wait until we were back on route, which took a further half hour, whereupon we were turfed off anyway at the controller's insistence, about three miles from where we should have been going. Thereafter I used the Underground and Overground, which wasn't my intention.

 

[175mph]

I did once have the pleasure of travelling on a bus in London that went off route When I asked the driver to let me off in a traffic jam not at a stop he refused
He did tell me that if I decided to press the emergency open button and jump off he could not stop me!
I still felt very uncomfortable doing this

I'd be afraid of being banned from using any of my local Stagecoach buses if I did that and it would cut me off from my job in Hull if I was banned, not really worth the risk just over wanting to get off somewhere.

 

[PG]

It certainly used to be the case on modern-ish buses that the drivers control buttons override use of the emergency controls.
Can't be certain if it would override the interior exit button as I've only had reason to use it when leaving stops with oiks pressing the open button outside!

 

[AndyW33]

But even if you go back to NBC days it was not clear cut. Because drivers employment contracts would have had a clause that you could only be booked by an official of your company. There's blog online from a former LT / LCBS driver who made the point that when London Country NW was taken over by Luton & District the L&D inspector based at Luton's complaints about early / later running had no authority because of those clauses in contracts.

That's more LT/LCBS specific than NBC in general. It was entirely normal for inspectors of one NBC (ex Tilling or BET) company to book drivers of another (and in the day, conductors) for irregularities, especially on joint routes, of which there were a lot, or at company-owned bus stations. Management acted on these when appropriate and unions did not object to it, they just represented their members at any disciplinary hearings and disputed the facts if necessary, not the principle.
This also extended to Scottish Bus Group companies on cross-border joint routes. Admittedly these were mostly express/limited stop services, so less opportunity to use the wrong stop, but ticketing irregularities were certainly reported, and dealt with.
In my period at Ribble, we certainly forwarded reports on alleged incidents to the company concerned, and this would even include independents such as Pennine and LUT, and acted on reports received from other companies. When I moved to United Counties I saw fewer, because there were many fewer routes running into other operators areas, or vice versa. Still the principle existed, so the L&D inspector (who would have been ex United Counties) would have reasonably expected reports to be given the same status as at his company.

 

[TUC]

It's been a while since I drove buses and that was in Newcastle. I simply didn't stop at places where I wasn't meant to for the most part, if you wanted to get on my bus be at the right stop at the right time. I might have been a bit easier going late at night at times or when it was quiet.

Any complaint that I had not picked someone up who wasn't at a stop would just go in the bin. We might have a laugh about it.

I have never know a fine be issued for stopping at the wrong stop, there simply isn't the organization or structure, at least outside London. Might be an urban myth?

Any complaint would just go in the bin and you would have a laugh about it? What a disgraceful attitude. I do hope the reason you don't drive buses anymore is that you were dismissed for your bad attitude.. I wonder what some people think taking on a customer facing job involves whrn they apply for it.

 

[TUC]

I don't blame you for feeling uncomfortable - I would too, even before my physical condition deteriorated to the extent it would now be foolish for me to do it. My last trip on a London bus, last year, was blighted by an unannounced huge detour and a similar request, although to be let off at the next available stop. He point blank refused, and said I'd have to wait until we were back on route, which took a further half hour, whereupon we were turfed off anyway at the controller's insistence, about three miles from where we should have been going. Thereafter I used the Underground and Overground, which wasn't my intention.

Buses in Stockton-on-Tees used to have the bad habit of leaving passengers stuck on the bus when drivers got off at the first High Street stop without warning, and left passengers for the 2nd High St stop stranded for up to 10 minutes until the next driver arrived. On several occasions I used the emergency button to get off. On a couple of occasions an approaching driver told me off, for which my response was, 'if your colleague had had the courtesy to tell passengers there was a change of driver which could take up,to 10 minutes, some of us would have chosen to get off. What did he expect us to do? Sit there as prisoners until the next driver arrived ?'

 

[175mph]

Buses in Stockton-on-Tees used to have the bad habit of leaving passengers stuck on the bus when drivers got off at the first High Street stop without warning, and left passengers for the 2nd High St stop stranded for up to 10 minutes until the next driver arrived. On several occasions I used the emergency button to get off. On a couple of occasions an approaching driver told me off, for which my response was, 'if your colleague had had the courtesy to tell passengers there was a change of driver which could take up,to 10 minutes, some of us would have chosen to get off. What did he expect us to do? Sit there as prisoners until the next driver arrived ?'

Was you threatened with a ban for saying that?

 

[markymark2000]

TFGM and Merseytravel both issue fines for stopping at the wrong stops. The fines go to the driver and depending on the union membership tier, the union will pay the fine for you. Otherwise it comes out of your wages.

Merseytravel is probably a good example of the fines because this is what leads to huge delays sometimes at stops because they can't allocate buses into stops properly thus causing a lot of conflicts and if a bus was to use another stand, they get fined so the buses just sit and wait sometimes causing queues of buses behind. (Note that Merseytravel will fine you for dropping off at anywhere other than the allocated stop as well, this is not limited to pick ups. The only way you can stop on another stand and not get fined is if Merseytravel staff instruct you to use another stand.

TFGM I think are a bit more lenient towards it now but they still don't like it. They issue fines for going 11mph in their bus station because the speed limit is 5mph. The fine goes to the bus operator and then the operator pays it or passes it onto the drivers.

 

[Geordie driver]

Any complaint would just go in the bin and you would have a laugh about it? What a disgraceful attitude. I do hope the reason you don't drive buses anymore is that you were dismissed for your bad attitude.. I wonder what some people think taking on a customer facing job involves whrn they apply for it.

A complaint that I hadn't picked up where I wasn't supposed to pick up would go straight in the bin, I wouldn't about be aware of it unless management mentioned it to me., I worked in public transport for nearly 20 years with zero substantiated passenger complaints against me, so there is nothing wrong with my attitude.

I left because I was sick of being spat on for expecting people to pay their fares, I left to work in forensic mental health where conditions were much better.

I once had a passenger complain that my bus had broken down and I must have known when she got on that it was going to break down, had a laugh at that one!

Never been dismissed from any job, but nonsense complaints get laughed at, sorry if that upset you. May I ask, have you ever driven service buses?

 

[CN04NRJ]

A complaint that I hadn't picked up where I wasn't supposed to pick up would go straight in the bin, I wouldn't about be aware of it unless management mentioned it to me., I worked in public transport for nearly 20 years with zero substantiated passenger complaints against me, so there is nothing wrong with my attitude.

I left because I was sick of being spat on for expecting people to pay their fares, I left to work in forensic mental health where conditions were much better.

I once had a passenger complain that my bus had broken down and I must have known when she got on that it was going to break down, had a laugh at that one!

Never been dismissed from any job, but nonsense complaints get laughed at, sorry if that upset you. May I ask, have you ever driven service buses?

I can second this. Had numerous passenger complaints over the last 10 years and not one single one was upheld or went any further than being asked to respond to it.

I had one about two years ago where a customer phoned up to formally accuse me of rolling my eyes at a *another* passenger in front of her!

Sometimes the only thing you can do is laugh or else the job will drive you mad!

 

[Geordie driver]

I can second this. Had numerous passenger complaints over the last 10 years and not one single one was upheld or went any further than being asked to respond to it.

I had one about two years ago where a customer phoned up to formally accuse me of rolling my eyes at a *another* passenger in front of her!

Sometimes the only thing you can do is laugh or else the job will drive you mad!

I do think the fact that everything is now on video will work in decent drivers favour, some of the punters think they have the right to treat you like dirt then lie about it.
Actual footage of me back in the day......