How are "drop off (or pick up) only" station stops enforced?

[enginedin]

I've noticed that some services have a station call that is timetabled as "Service stops to pick up passengers only" (or "drop off passengers only"), e.g. the 23:30 Caledonian Lowland Sleeper at Watford. Is this just for timetabling to try and make sure the train isn't full of people trying to do that leg? If someone gets on at EUS with a EUS-WFJ ticket would they technically have an invalid ticket?

 

[HarryF]

In the case of Euston to Watford Junction, Avanti and Caledonian Sleeper trains have tickets checked prior to boarding, so any passenger trying to go to Watford is likely to be denied boarding.

There’s a thread somewhere on this forum which I will need to look for where someone boarding at Watford Junction was charged for a new ticket from the train’s previous stop.

 

[alistairlees]

I've noticed that some services have a station call that is timetabled as "Service stops to pick up passengers only" (or "drop off passengers only"), e.g. the 23:30 Caledonian Lowland Sleeper at Watford. Is this just for timetabling to try and make sure the train isn't full of people trying to do that leg? If someone gets on at EUS with a EUS-WFJ ticket would they technically have an invalid ticket?

They would not get on; entry is controlled.

 

[87015]

They would not get on; entry is controlled.

They are usually more than happy to take you to Watford if you explain you need the 92...

 

[enginedin]

There’s a thread somewhere on this forum which I will need to look for where someone boarding at Watford Junction was charged for a new ticket from the train’s previous stop.

Yeh, I can imagine this happening - it was more the case of how do they stop you getting off there.

What is the rationale for this too?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Yeh, I can imagine this happening - it was more the case of how do they stop you getting off there.

What is the rationale for this too?

I suppose its to stop long distance trains getting filled with short-hop commuters. That said, I've gone from Clapham Junction to Waterloo on a fast train from platform 7 plenty of times. It is advertised to Waterloo, but I still get some puzzled looks from station staff or the guards of the 159 or whatever that has set down on the platform as I board, as usually I'm the only one waiting other than another brave passenger. On the way back from Waterloo the Clapham Junction stop isn't advertised, so I'm not sure what would happen if you got on a train at Waterloo that was booked to pick up at CLJ without a valid ticket for stations south of there.

 

[Kite159]

I suppose its to stop long distance trains getting filled with short-hop commuters. That said, I've gone from Clapham Junction to Waterloo on a fast train from platform 7 plenty of times. It is advertised to Waterloo, but I still get some puzzled looks from station staff or the guards of the 159 or whatever that has set down on the platform as I board, as usually I'm the only one waiting other than another brave passenger. On the way back from Waterloo the Clapham Junction stop isn't advertised, so I'm not sure what would happen if you got on a train at Waterloo that was booked to pick up at CLJ without a valid ticket for stations south of there.

SWR trains towards Waterloo generally have no longer have any set down only restrictions at Clapham. They are even advertised on the platforms (no more blank PIS screen or "welcome to Clapham Junction").

 

[enginedin]

Totally coincidentally, I'm currently on a service this has just occurred on:

Realtime Trains | 1S75 1610 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh | 17/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S75 1610 departure from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh on 17/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Bolton wasn't advertised as a stopping place at MAN or on the train, but we did just stop there with RTT showing it to "pick up passengers only" - on a sunday afternoon, this isn't to stop commuters doing a short hop

 

[Merle Haggard]

I know this is to an extent off-topic; but does anyone know why the Rugby stop in the 07.15 Manchester - Euston is 'stops to pick up passengers only'? I could see a logic for making it set down only, but preventing passengers getting off seems bizarre.

 

[mangyiscute]

Bolton wasn't advertised as a stopping place at MAN or on the train, but we did just stop there with RTT showing it to "pick up passengers only" - on a sunday afternoon, this isn't to stop commuters doing a short hop

It will be because TPE will expect this train to be very busy leaving Manchester, whereas the other trains from Manchester to Bolton are expected to be less busy, so it is better if bolton passengers don't take this train - its not necessarily commuters, just trying to keep short distance passengers from clogging up a long distance trains.

I've had this issue before where a XC train leaving Birmingham towards Reading leaves full and standing, having to turn people away, and many of these people will have to wait an hour (or 2 in my case since the next one was cancelled) while some people travel on the cross country service only as far as Coventry or Birmingham International, and those people have another train about 10 minutes later which they could take, leaving more space on the cross country service for those travelling longer distances.

 

[dk1]

They are not on the whole. It’s just there to persuade the majority to go along with it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Once upon a time, many years ago, (etc) the Manchester - South Wales services, hauled by a Class 33, were 'pick up only' at Wilmslow. The train slowed approaching the station and station staff waved the train through if there were no passengers to board. Any passengers 33 baggers hoping to alight would have to continue to Crewe and return from there. This was in the days of slam door stock, just saying.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I know this is to an extent off-topic; but does anyone know why the Rugby stop in the 07.15 Manchester - Euston is 'stops to pick up passengers only'? I could see a logic for making it set down only, but preventing passengers getting off seems bizarre.

Does it essentially preclude split ticketing opportunities? Think it's also pick up only at Rugby on the midweek 08.15 Avanti service from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston.

 

[enginedin]

And interestingly, most of the northern stops on the Caledonian Sleeper are listed as "Stops to drop passengers off only" - I wonder what the rationale for this is!

Realtime Trains | 2100 London Euston to Inverness and Fort William | 17/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2100 departure from London Euston to Inverness and Fort William on 17/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Merle Haggard]

Does it essentially preclude split ticketing opportunities? Think it's also pick up only at Rugby on the midweek 08.15 Avanti service from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston.

Thanks, that makes sense.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

What's the stance when it comes to zonal/ season tickets and passes?

 

[paul1609]

And interestingly, most of the northern stops on the Caledonian Sleeper are listed as "Stops to drop passengers off only" - I wonder what the rationale for this is!

Realtime Trains | 2100 London Euston to Inverness and Fort William | 17/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2100 departure from London Euston to Inverness and Fort William on 17/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

It doesn't stop if there's no passengers booked to that station and it's not required for other purposes token exchange etc. The West Highland section in theory has local passengers as well but defacto if the trains running late it will skip stops if there's no passengers.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Does it essentially preclude split ticketing opportunities? Think it's also pick up only at Rugby on the midweek 08.15 Avanti service from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston.

I wonder if that's precisely why Avanti appear to have made both their 16:53 and 17:53 Euston to Manchester services set down only at Rugby? Seems random to me.

 

[Watershed]

Does it essentially preclude split ticketing opportunities? Think it's also pick up only at Rugby on the midweek 08.15 Avanti service from Manchester Piccadilly to London Euston.

Yes - exactly. Most Avanti-set Off-Peak tickets between Rugby and stations north of Rugeley are effectively valid at any time (they have restriction code 2T). This means that there are huge savings to be made by splitting when travelling on trains that would otherwise require Anytime fares.

Avanti evidently realised this and therefore rather dishonestly added various pick up/set down only restrictions to prevent people from being automatically offered splits by the likes of Trainline and TrainSplit.

There's clearly no legitimate purpose to these restrictions in terms of managing passenger crowding and I can't imagine they're enforced in any practical sense (i.e. stopping people from getting on or off); they're purely there to maximise revenue.

What's the stance when it comes to zonal/ season tickets and passes?

These can be combined with other tickets (whether zonal/season or single/return) at any station the train goes through, regardless of whether or not it calls there.

 

[D1537]

The one that has always struck me as weird is the last Euston to Wolverhampton. On a weekday all of its stops are normal, but on a Sunday it is set down only at Rugby, Coventry, B'ham International and B'ham New St.

 

[jfollows]

The one that has always struck me as weird is the last Euston to Wolverhampton. On a weekday all of its stops are normal, but on a Sunday it is set down only at Rugby, Coventry, B'ham International and B'ham New St.

That sort of thing is usually to avoid the need for alternative transport for people otherwise joining at these stations when trains are diverted. It’s actually quite sensible given there would only be very few of them if this weren’t the case.

 

[185143]

They are usually more than happy to take you to Watford if you explain you need the 92...

Genuinely?

I'm pretty certain I've had all the 92s CS use but it'd be interesting to know.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

These can be combined with other tickets (whether zonal/season or single/return) at any station the train goes through, regardless of whether or not it calls there.

However, for boarding and alighting? Say a travelcard being used between Stratford and Liverpool St on the ex-Norwich services?

 

[D1537]

That sort of thing is usually to avoid the need for alternative transport for people otherwise joining at these stations when trains are diverted. It’s actually quite sensible given there would only be very few of them if this weren’t the case.

Possibly, but the only diversion I've ever seen on that one is from Rugby via Stafford to Wolverhampton (missing out COV/BHI/BHM) and that regularly happens on weekdays as well.

Ironically, today when there's engineering between Rugby and Birmingham International, the train is cancelled completely. Probably because they don't want to run a very late onward bus to Coventry etc. anyway (but then there isn't one for the last train, the 2225 EUS-WVH, which goes via Stafford, either...)

 

[Ianigsy]

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, the answer as far as Runcorn was concerned was “not at all” - several times a year we’d make trips from Birkenhead to Runcorn to visit my aunt and uncle, and I don’t once ever recall us being refused access to the Euston trains in either direction.

To go back to the original question, in theory it’s quite possible for seating on the the Caledonian Sleeper to be fully booked, and equally if there’s nobody booked to board at Watford then it might not stop at all, on the grounds that it’s better to be five minutes early at Crewe than sit in the way for no good reason.

 

[mangyiscute]

However, for boarding and alighting? Say a travelcard being used between Stratford and Liverpool St on the ex-Norwich services?

You couldn't use it to travel from Liverpool St to Stratford and alight there, since Stratford is a pick up only call. However, with zonal tickets such as a travelcard, you are allowed to split at a station which the train doesnt call at - meaning if you wanted to use a zones 1-6 travelcard as part of a Liverpool St to Norwich journey, you could just combine it with a Harold Wood to Norwich ticket (or boundary zone 6 to Norwich ticket) and that would be a valid split, even though the train obviously doesn't stop at Harold Wood

 

[Bletchleyite]

And interestingly, most of the northern stops on the Caledonian Sleeper are listed as "Stops to drop passengers off only" - I wonder what the rationale for this is!

Realtime Trains | 2100 London Euston to Inverness and Fort William | 17/09/2023

Real-time train running information for 2100 departure from London Euston to Inverness and Fort William on 17/09/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

CS don't have much seating capacity, so it doesn't make a good service train for the morning peak.

 

[greyman42]

"Set downs" are sometimes used on late night trains to avoid having to wait at stations if the train is ahead if schedule. The 2300 London to York is an example. It often arrives in York early.

 

[Flying Snail]

It doesn't stop if there's no passengers booked to that station and it's not required for other purposes token exchange etc. The West Highland section in theory has local passengers as well but defacto if the trains running late it will skip stops if there's no passengers.

There is no "in theory" regarding the Fort William portion, it carries local passengers Edinburgh - Fort William in both directions and (excepting the request stops) it stops at all stations, as it has done for a very long time. Historically it was only from/to Glasgow and before that Westerton with a shuttle from Queen Street to connect.

Kingussie - Inverness is also allowed for local traffic as it arrives at Inverness before 9 filling a gap for local commuter traffic, from Inverness there is no set down for local traffic as is also the case with the Aberdeen portion in both directions.

 

[Edsmith]

"Set downs" are sometimes used on late night trains to avoid having to wait at stations if the train is ahead if schedule. The 2300 London to York is an example. It often arrives in York early.

Also avoids the need for rail replacement buses if the train is diverted because of engineering work.