How are delay minutes calculated?

[trainophile]

the delay minutes are thrown around the system until they stick somewhere whether it had anything to do with the actual cause or not!

I think that Delay Attribution adds nothing to the modern railway and it certainly isnt being used for the purpose it was intended for when it all started!

^ Probably the most enlightening reply so far! What a waste of everyone's time though :roll:.

 

[Bald Rick]

Delay attribution was done in BR days - they were called "impact minutes" then. No doubt that the protracted arguing doesn't help, but the correct attribution of minutes absolutely does focus on where the railway should concentrate its efforts in improving punctuality.

 

[455driver]

If that is the case how does an SWT delay affecting an XC service get delays from Scotland added to it when the affected XC service left Birmingham new Street on time?

DA was used to find the problems with the network and timetable but that was a long long time ago.

 

[306024]

Delay attribution was done in BR days - they were called "impact minutes" then. No doubt that the protracted arguing doesn't help, but the correct attribution of minutes absolutely does focus on where the railway should concentrate its efforts in improving punctuality.

The XC example was obviously incorrect attribution.

 

[Bald Rick]

If that is the case how does an SWT delay affecting an XC service get delays from Scotland added to it when the affected XC service left Birmingham new Street on time?

Presumably because, unlike us two, not everyone is perfect. DA staff sometimes make mistakes, particularly if under pressure.

 

[455driver]

It only got picked up because I was getting it in the neck for the delays and I asked for a copy of the delays because it seemed over the top.
I had already looked how the XC had run after I knocked it, and when I brought this to the attention of out DA clerk he looked a bit sheepish but did query it and the extra 200 odd (I think) minutes were removed.

It most certainly wasnt a mistake and the delays further up the line (XC on itself) should never have been sent in our direction in the first place, and the XC DA lot were just trying it on, of that I am certain!

As for being perfect, if I could be half as perfect as some people think they are then I would be doing okay.

 

[Tomnick]

It's not unusual for the TDAs in one area to try it on, if there's a problem (or even a single three minute delay) just over the boundary to another area - it can help to minimise (well, hide) the impact of their own problems. I'd guess they were just as likely to do that sort of thing in BR days though?

 

[talltim]

DA does give Network Rail a figure to give insurance companies in cases such as bridge strikes

 

[The Planner]

TDA can get overwhelmed if the incident is big enough, I am sure there were incidents in the last few months around/at Waterloo where incidents were either put in the ZZ or a specific coding pot because they couldn't keep up.

 

[Lockwood]

Not quite right - this was tested at a very early delay attribution board. It is due to the track access contract and station access contract being separate contracts.

The only fatalities (or attempts) that are not given to NR are those that either originate on a train (ie jumping out of a train) or those that originate from a station but do not touch the rail infrastructure, ie jump from platform and bounce back on to platform.

Logistic question, which will just sound morbid. Apologies in advance...

Someone suicides at an NR station. Is that delay to NR or the TOC that hit them?
Someone suicides by electrocution at a station - no train involved in the incident. NR's track killed them, not the TOC's train. Still TOC's fault?
How far down the ramp would someone have to run for it to turn into NR's problem?
If you have a station with platforms no opposite each other (ISTR one on the Southampton-Bristol route opposite sides of a level crossing?) and the person ends up covering both lines, who's "fault" is that? Or would that depend upon which side of the track they approached from, rather than where the majority of them ended up? (Or going back to the second question, does the track opposite still count as the station in that example)

Well, that got quite dark quite quickly

 

[trainophile]

Still wondering who receives all the fines money, and what it is subsequently used for. Delay repay claims?

 

[D1009]

Logistic question, which will just sound morbid. Apologies in advance...

Someone suicides at an NR station. Is that delay to NR or the TOC that hit them?
Someone suicides by electrocution at a station - no train involved in the incident. NR's track killed them, not the TOC's train. Still TOC's fault?
How far down the ramp would someone have to run for it to turn into NR's problem?
If you have a station with platforms no opposite each other (ISTR one on the Southampton-Bristol route opposite sides of a level crossing?) and the person ends up covering both lines, who's "fault" is that? Or would that depend upon which side of the track they approached from, rather than where the majority of them ended up? (Or going back to the second question, does the track opposite still count as the station in that example)

Well, that got quite dark quite quickly

I believe the principle is that if the person involved accessed the railway from somewhere which was responsibility of a TOC, in other words a station, the TOC gets the minutes, if not NR gets them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Still wondering who receives all the fines money, and what it is subsequently used for. Delay repay claims?

Fines is the wrong word, it's part of the contract drawn up between the TOC and Network Rail for track access.

 

[Bald Rick]

Logistic question, which will just sound morbid. Apologies in advance...

Someone suicides at an NR station. Is that delay to NR or the TOC that hit them?
Someone suicides by electrocution at a station - no train involved in the incident. NR's track killed them, not the TOC's train. Still TOC's fault?
How far down the ramp would someone have to run for it to turn into NR's problem?
If you have a station with platforms no opposite each other (ISTR one on the Southampton-Bristol route opposite sides of a level crossing?) and the person ends up covering both lines, who's "fault" is that? Or would that depend upon which side of the track they approached from, rather than where the majority of them ended up? (Or going back to the second question, does the track opposite still count as the station in that example)

Well, that got quite dark quite quickly

I shall attempt to be as unmorbid(?) as possible.

If the individual touches NR infrastructure, ie ballast, sleepers, rails, third rail, etc etc, the minutes go to NR, regardless of where the individual started. So the only time a TOC will get all the minutes (usually) if the individual starts and finishes on the station platform, without having touched the track.

'Fines' go to the party (in the contract, ie TOC or Network rail) who didn't cause the delay. Note that the penalty per minute is usually much greater from NR to TOC than vice versa.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It only got picked up because I was getting it in the neck for the delays and I asked for a copy of the delays because it seemed over the top.
I had already looked how the XC had run after I knocked it, and when I brought this to the attention of out DA clerk he looked a bit sheepish but did query it and the extra 200 odd (I think) minutes were removed.

It most certainly wasnt a mistake and the delays further up the line (XC on itself) should never have been sent in our direction in the first place, and the XC DA lot were just trying it on, of that I am certain!
:

Nearly all initial DA is done by NR people. I suspect in this case, when the XC train was late, the DA clerk checked the delay further back in the journey, would have seen a load of late running due to an incident in SWT land, and assumed that it was still running late by reaction. The DA guide says that subsequent reactionary delay should be allocated to the previous incident that caused the greatest delay, which in this case would be yours. So technically he/she was right - if your train had left Birmingham late (even 1 minute). Doesn't excuse not looking at the departure time at Birmingham mind, but easily done if there were a lot of unattributed delays on that shift.

 

[Darren R]

It only got picked up because I was getting it in the neck for the delays and I asked for a copy of the delays because it seemed over the top.
I had already looked how the XC had run after I knocked it, and when I brought this to the attention of our DA clerk he looked a bit sheepish but did query it and the extra 200 odd (I think) minutes were removed.

It most certainly wasnt a mistake and the delays further up the line (XC on itself) should never have been sent in our direction in the first place, and the XC DA lot were just trying it on, of that I am certain!

I am aware of the existence and Kafkaesque workings of the Delay Attribution Board (who provide some very entertaining documents and reports!) - but you seem to be suggesting that TOCs have their own Delay Attribution people as well. Please tell me I am misunderstanding this! :?

 

[The Planner]

How else do the TOCs dispute whiffy attribution if they don't have their own people looking at it?

 

[455driver]

I am aware of the existence and Kafkaesque workings of the Delay Attribution Board (who provide some very entertaining documents and reports!) - but you seem to be suggesting that TOCs have their own Delay Attribution people as well. Please tell me I am misunderstanding this! :?

There was somebody up in Control who seemed to always deal with these things so I assumed he was a DA clerk.

I have been in Swindon Control (FGW) and they have their own DA clerks but as its a shared control I take it from your statement that they must be NR employees and not FGW, the impression I got was that they are FGW staff.

 

[carriageline]

I am fairly sure I have seen SWT recruiting for a delay clerk before!

 

[LBSCR Times]

FCC Delay Clerks are based at Hertford House and work early and late shifts, with the overnight delays being dealt with by FCC Control staff.

 

[Markos72]

Interesting reading guys,I have an interview for a secondment to DA up here north of the border tomorrow,has certainly given me a wide insight than just sitting reading thru the DAG.

 

[D1009]

I am fairly sure I have seen SWT recruiting for a delay clerk before!

The successful applicant has my sympathy.

 

[Bald Rick]

There is a difference between Delay Attribution (DA) - which is usually done by NR people, and Delay Resolution - the next step in the process - which is where incidents are disputed, argued and agreed.

In NR, DA guys work shifts, Delay Resolution Co-ordinators (DRC) work office hours, usually.

TOCs will have Delay resolution people, although they may have a different job title. Their attribution role is usually to allocate delays between relative TOC departments, otherwise they are resolving delays already attributed by NR.

At least that's how it works in the part of the railway I work in.

 

[carriageline]

I was right about SWT having DA clerks, and you are right about them doing 'duplicate jobs', as talked about in this link, where they are/we're merging the NR DA team, and the SWT DA team

http://www.tssa.org.uk/en/Your-union/Your-company/company-pages/south-west-trains/index.cfm/merger-of-delay-attribution-teams-of-south-west-trains-and-network-rail

 

[Minilad]

I make a habit of checking any delays to my train. Most are understandable, some a bit tenuous, and some downright rubbish

 

[Tomnick]

How are they 'downright rubbish'?

 

[Minilad]

How are they 'downright rubbish'?

See post 37 for a start.

 

[Tomnick]

Yes, I wrote that! Doesn't mean it's rubbish though - a three-minute delay to a train approaching the area can easily have knock-on effects that quickly multiply at a busy location. If the attribution is clearly wrong though, it's usually soon disputed.

 

[Minilad]

Yes, I wrote that! Doesn't mean it's rubbish though - a three-minute delay to a train approaching the area can easily have knock-on effects that quickly multiply at a busy location. If the attribution is clearly wrong though, it's usually soon disputed.

Only if it's picked up of course. Hence why I always check.
I am aware things easily build up but some of the stuff I have seen about my train have been blatantly people trying to lump all sorts onto a particular incident. Maybe to cover up other things

 

[Tomnick]

Apologies, thought you meant the explanation of the initial delay incident was rubbish rather than the subsequent allocation!

 

[Minilad]

Oh I have had that too!!