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Hove to St Pancras Commute

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Long time lurker and reader of the forums, love this community and learning about all things rail.

Finally had a reason to create an account and post

Just moving down to Hove from London and going to be commuting in, want to make sure I am not missing any obvious fare savings

Planned communte 2 days per week, looking at getting

Outbound
05:52 train from Hove and then changing east Croydon for Thameslink into St Pancreas

Return journey
St Pancras to Hove changing again at east croyden leaving around 17:00ish

Going to buy a National Railcard, as this does seem to make some savings when searching around, plus split tickets,

Total = £47.60 per day of travel, am I missing anything obvious? Aware there are Thameslink only tickets, but not found they are saving anything
 
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John R

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What is a " National Railcard"?
I presume they mean a Network Railcard, which has the potential to offer savings on the return journey if they buy two singles rather than a return.
 

Snow1964

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If changing at East Croydon, might be cheaper using contactless or oyster for that section to London, but the downside would be going up the platform ramps to use barriers to exit and return, to cover tap in/out with both tickets.

There is an inconvenience factor in this, but if your connections mean you are waiting around, and the savings worth it, then might be worth considering.
 

JonathanH

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If changing at East Croydon, might be cheaper using contactless or oyster for that section to London, but the downside would be going up the platform ramps to use barriers to exit and return, to cover tap in/out with both tickets.

Given the need to change train, on the days when the 0552 runs to time, it could be possible to alight at Gatwick, and touch in before 0630 (0632 in practice) for the off-peak contactless fare at £10.70 from Gatwick to St Pancras, but that is something of a nuisance to do, and the timing is tight. East Croydon is definitely after 0630.
 

Watershed

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Long time lurker and reader of the forums, love this community and learning about all things rail.

Finally had a reason to create an account and post

Just moving down to Hove from London and going to be commuting in, want to make sure I am not missing any obvious fare savings

Planned communte 2 days per week, looking at getting

Outbound
05:52 train from Hove and then changing east Croydon for Thameslink into St Pancreas

Return journey
St Pancreas to Hove changing again at east croyden leaving around 17:00ish

Going to buy a National Railcard, as this does seem to make some savings when searching around, plus split tickets,

Total = £47.60 per day of travel, am I missing anything obvious? Aware there are Thameslink only tickets, but not found they are saving anything
Welcome to the forum!

Brand restrictions and routes

Legally speaking, tickets cannot be restricted by brand - only by operator. Govia Thameslink Railway Ltd (GTR) operate services under four brands (Southern, Gatwick Express, Thameslink & Great Northern). Therefore a "Thameslink only" ticket is valid on all services operated by GTR, whatever their brand. There is an ongoing class action lawsuit regarding people being overcharged or wrongly issued with Penalty Fares - see here.

Apart from the usual direct route, other valid routes from Brighton towards London include travelling via Hove or Lewes. Accordingly, a ticket routed "Thameslink only" would be valid for you to travel from Brighton via Hove on Southern-branded services - and as flexible tickets allow you to break your journey (i.e. get on or off at an intermediate station) you can start your journey at Hove.

Cheapest 'easy' option

Having looked at the options, it would therefore likely be cheapest for you to start your journey with a Brighton to Gatwick Airport Anytime Day Return, routed "Thameslink only" (£15.90), and take the 05:52 from Hove as far as Gatwick Airport. You'd exit with that ticket (you could get this as a paper or eTicket) and then re-enter by touching in with an Oyster card or Key smartcard with KeyGo set up, which you'd also use to touch out at St Pancras.

The 05:52 from Hove is scheduled to arrive at Gatwick Airport at 06:27. TfL advertises that off-peak PAYG fares are charged if you touch in at any time before 06:30, but in reality there is a 5 minute grace at the start of the morning and evening peak periods - so you can touch in as late as 06:34 and still benefit from the off-peak fare. The 05:52 is generally quite punctual, arriving at Gatwick within 5 mins of its scheduled arrival time 94% of the time, so it's highly likely you'd be able to touch in at Gatwick before 06:34 (especially once you get to know the station layout).

The big benefit of this is that the off-peak PAYG fares from Gatwick to St Pancras are really cheap, costing only £10.70 (see the default fare). On your way back home, you'd buy an Anytime Day Single from St Pancras to Gatwick, routed "Not Underground". In theory this should be discounted to £10.05, but as you are travelling on a weekday and the Network Railcard has a minimum weekday fare of £13, you would pay £13. As you would using a pre-purchased ticket rather than PAYG, you would not need to touch out at Gatwick on your way home - you can change at East Croydon, Gatwick or wherever else you fancy.

In total that would cost you £39.60 per day. The one potential wrinkle is that your "Thameslink only" ticket might not be accepted by the barriers at Hove. They usually accept Brighton tickets, but I'm not sure if they distinguish based on if they're "Thameslink only", on the basis of the purported (unlawful) brand restrictions. If your ticket is rejected by the barriers then I appreciate it might be a lot of hassle to argue the toss with the barrier staff every time you travel, so you might prefer just to walk/drive to Brighton station and catch a train from there for an easy life.

Cheapest 'clever' option

If you want to save even more money then you could consider buying an annual season ticket that gets you an Annual Gold Card. The cheapest qualifying season ticket is between Hatton and Lapworth (two adjacent stations in Warwickshire), which would cost £212 per year. The benefit of an Annual Gold Card over a Network Railcard is that it can be added to an Oyster card to get a 1/3 discount on off-peak PAYG fares and caps - so your Gatwick to St Pancras morning journey would cost just £7.10. It would also mean that you get the full 1/3 discount for your evening ticket from St Pancras to Gatwick, as there's no minimum fare for the Annual Gold Card (it's just not valid before 09:30), reducing that to £10.05.

If you bought a Hatton to Lapworth season to get a Gold Card, your commute's cost would then reduce to £33.05 per day. If you compare the marginal cost of a Hatton to Lapworth season vs a Network Railcard (an extra £177 a year) and divide that by 47 weeks a year of commuting, the average daily cost works out at £36.82 which is still a fair bit cheaper than the above option.

There are also some retailers that offer cashback when you buy tickets too - many Amex holders currently have a 5% or 10% off offer for buying tickets through LNER or Avanti, similarly with many MasterCards. However these offers come and go, so you can't always rely on them being available. That said, with LNER, you can also get cashback on e-voucher purchases, which you could use throughout the year to pay for your tickets even when an offer isn't currently available.

Oyster and KeyGo

In terms of deciding between Oyster and KeyGo for the morning journey, it's worth noting that Oyster cards can be set up to top up automatically when they fall below a certain balance, so you don't need to top up manually. Contactless would offer you the same morning off-peak fare until 06:34 as Oyster, but you can't apply a Railcard to your contactless card - only to an Oyster card (you have to go to an Underground station to get it set up).

KeyGo charges either TfL's PAYG fares or regular single/return fares, whichever is cheaper (including Railcards, if you set up a Railcard on your account). However I'm not sure it would apply the same 5 minute off-peak grace period, as I believe it works out which train you likely took and then looks at its scheduled departure time and works out what ticket/PAYG fare is applicable to that, rather than purely working on touch in times as per TfL's system. Maybe one to try out on your commute?

If you didn't manage to touch in at Gatwick by 06:30/06:34, with Oyster/contactless you would be charged the peak PAYG fare of £19.20. With KeyGo you would be charged the £15.10 Anytime Day Single as that is cheaper, so if you miss the 06:34 cutoff you would be better off touching in with KeyGo than Oyster/contactless. So perhaps best to carry both your KeyGo card as well as your Oyster card.

I appreciate that's a lot to take in but hopefully it gives you an idea of what to look into :)
 

dastocks

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3 Nov 2021
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Location
Hove
Outbound
05:52 train from Hove and then changing east Croydon for Thameslink into St Pancreas

Return journey
St Pancras to Hove changing again at east croyden leaving around 17:00ish
Personally, I would avoid changing at East Croydon, especially in the evening. If you're using a Three Bridges or Horsham Thameslink stopper you would obviously have to change there, otherwise everything calls at Haywards Heath where it will be a same/cross platform change. There are limited opportunities to travel via Brighton or change at whichever of Burgess Hill/Hassocks/Preston Park will work.

I find Train Track and Fasteroute (Android) are handy for checking that everything is working as advertised and deciding what to do when it isn't. You should definitely consider using the Victoria Line when Thameslink is having a bad day and having that flexibility may be a factor in your choice of tickets.

I live in Hove but I'm slightly closer to Brighton Station so for that commute it would usually be Thameslink all the way, partly because you can sit in the rear coach first class for no extra charge.
 

8ace

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yes depending on whereabouts you live in Hove, Preston Park or Brighton might be closer.
 
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thanks all for the info super useful. Wanted to provide an update on this and how it’s all going.

Been smooth sailing the past few weeks, ended up testing out what worked best. Long story short, went with @Watershed Cheapest 'easy' option (thanks for the in depth explanation)

Ticket barrier work fine and no problems from any ticket inspectors.

Except from having the first blip today, had a ticket inspector on Southern line into Gatwick, not let me travel with my “Thameslink” Only ticket, I tried to explain the situation, but they were having none of it, had to either get of at the next station or bill me for the remaining full price ticket. I went for paying the excess.

Do we think Is it worth me trying to claim back the extra I paid , or should I just take the hit as the faff is not worth the pain. (Aware there is the class action lawsuit exactly for this)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I will also say, the switch at Gatwick, is quite a pleasant switch, always feel like I am going on holiday in the morning.
 
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gray1404

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thanks all for the info super useful. Wanted to provide an update on this and how it’s all going.

Been smooth sailing the past few weeks, ended up testing out what worked best. Long story short, went with @Watershed Cheapest 'easy' option (thanks for the in depth explanation)

Ticket barrier work fine and no problems from any ticket inspectors.

Except from having the first blip today, had a ticket inspector on Southern line into Gatwick, not let me travel with my “Thameslink” Only ticket, I tried to explain the situation, but they were having none of it, had to either get of at the next station or bill me for the remaining full price ticket. I went for paying the excess.

Do we think Is it worth me trying to claim back the extra I paid , or should I just take the hit as the faff is not worth the pain. (Aware there is the class action lawsuit exactly for this)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I will also say, the switch at Gatwick, is quite a pleasant switch, always feel like I am going on holiday in the morning.
You should definitely complain about this to recover the additional fare paid plus compensation as well as assurances the inspector will be dealt with accordingly so this doesn't happen again. I'd wait to hear back from @yorkie for advice on how to proceed with this. Please keep hold of your original ticket and the additional one you were forced to purchase.
 

Watershed

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thanks all for the info super useful. Wanted to provide an update on this and how it’s all going.

Been smooth sailing the past few weeks, ended up testing out what worked best. Long story short, went with @Watershed Cheapest 'easy' option (thanks for the in depth explanation)

Ticket barrier work fine and no problems from any ticket inspectors.

Except from having the first blip today, had a ticket inspector on Southern line into Gatwick, not let me travel with my “Thameslink” Only ticket, I tried to explain the situation, but they were having none of it, had to either get of at the next station or bill me for the remaining full price ticket. I went for paying the excess.

Do we think Is it worth me trying to claim back the extra I paid , or should I just take the hit as the faff is not worth the pain. (Aware there is the class action lawsuit exactly for this)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I will also say, the switch at Gatwick, is quite a pleasant switch, always feel like I am going on holiday in the morning.
Glad to hear that it is working out well for you. I would be making a complaint to GTR; their staff are in breach of contract (and possibly the law) if they charge you extra for travelling on the "wrong" brand of GTR train.

Based on what I have heard from previous complaints/issues along this sort of line, they do seem to reimburse/refund you fairly readily.
 
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Update

Had the worst questioning from a ticket inspector today

He told me if he catches me again he will fine me £100, I again tried to explain him the siutation, but he was having none of it and said I should be seeing it from his point of view. He has certainly marked my cards and will be looking out for me now. It certainly didn't like me mentioning about the lawsuit either. I hate sounding like a smart ass in front of passengers and agree it is not write, but when there is a blatent disregard for the rules from companies taking cash from evryones pockets, it doesnt feel right for us commuters.

Can I ask does anyone have a crib sheet or written explanation that has helped prove this for anyone? Not sure i can be bothered to keep bumping into this inspector and having the same debate over and over

Any advice in dealing with these siutations would be much appreciated
 

Watershed

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Update

Had the worst questioning from a ticket inspector today

He told me if he catches me again he will fine me £100, I again tried to explain him the siutation, but he was having none of it and said I should be seeing it from his point of view.
What incredible customer service! :rolleyes:

He has certainly marked my cards and will be looking out for me now. It certainly didn't like me mentioning about the lawsuit either. I hate sounding like a smart ass in front of passengers and agree it is not write, but when there is a blatent disregard for the rules from companies taking cash from evryones pockets, it doesnt feel right for us commuters.
It's absolutely not right that they are continuing to wrongly charge people in this way, and to try and penalise people for travelling on the "wrong" brand.

Can I ask does anyone have a crib sheet or written explanation that has helped prove this for anyone? Not sure i can be bothered to keep bumping into this inspector and having the same debate over and over

Any advice in dealing with these siutations would be much appreciated
I think the best thing to do is to decide a strategy in advance. Are you going to try and argue the toss with them on the spot? If so it'd certainly help if you can refer to any materials that support your argument, e.g. the wording of NRCoT condition 12.1 which refers to Train Companies as a capitalised (i.e. defined) term. Appendix A lists GTR as one train company - merely operating under three brands.

Alternatively you could comply with whatever nonsense they impose and then argue it afterwards. However if you've paid money (or given your details for a PF) then in some ways it may be harder to get that back, or to stop the process.

I suppose you will have to decide whether the potential hassle of GTR staff wrongly taking umbrage is worth the saving.
 
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Thanks for the continued advice, I truthfuly don't think he will even accept any evidence i present to him, the next time i see him.

I will have a think and figure out my next steps
 

yorkie

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Yes, absolutely.

I am not aware of anyone actually being charged an on-board excess or penalty fare for using the 'wrong brand' on GTR recently.

I believe the company is reluctant to do anything in light of the legal case.

If you are charged an excess or penalty fare, pay it under duress and ensure you retain the ticket(s) / receipts / documentation issued and send me a draft email for proof reading.
 

J4ck100

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The OP indicated in this thread that on the 18th of August that they were forced to pay the excess so it does appear to be happening.

Does anyone have clarity on when the court judgement will clear this matter up once and for all?
 

Joe Paxton

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I appreciate the arguments re the GTR 'brand restrictions', and note that it is a bit of a hobbyhorse of this forum. All I would say is that here we have an example of the potential real-world hassles that can come from trying to utilise a 'brand restricted' ticket on the service of a different brand.
 

Watershed

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I appreciate the arguments re the GTR 'brand restrictions', and note that it is a bit of a hobbyhorse of this forum. All I would say is that here we have an example of the potential real-world hassles that can come from trying to utilise a 'brand restricted' ticket on the service of a different brand.
The OP commutes twice a week and in the last 3 months it sounds like there have "only" been 2 occasions where anyone has taken objection to their use of the ticket. That's the equivalent of 1 in 12 journeys, roughly.

Clearly it's not ideal to have that sort of hassle, but given the savings available, if it were me I would definitely be minded to continue using the tickets in this way and handle any issues as and when they arise.
 
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Update 1 - I have just started doing 3 days a week commuting on the same route, so any ideas on doing this the best would be appreciated. Just started looking into season tickets etc as I know that 3 days is normally the crossover for making some season tickets cheaper etc.


Update 2 - Thank you all for your ideas, For the past few weeks I decided to pay for the southern tickets to avoid any issues. I did want to continue with the Thameslink only tickets but also didn’t want to risk getting a fine and then having a can of worms open if they looked into my past etc to find all the previous journeys. Even though from a technicality perspective I am covered, I don’t really fancy fighting another battle right now.
 

fandroid

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It's notable that your inspector didn't give you a Penalty Fare, but just threatened you with one in future. From what we've seen on the disputes sub-forum, such hesitation is unusual where definite contraventions occur. It hints that he knows he can't legally PF you but is under instruction to vigorously discourage the use of "wrong brand" tickets.

Having said that, I fully understand why you wouldn't wish to risk any future confrontations.

Best wishes for your future commuting.
 

mdog69

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The stupid thing about this is that if the planned Thameslink service had actually been provided there would have been direct Thameslink trains from Hove to London Bridge and beyond.
Instead of that the Southern West coastway direct trains to London Bridge got canned, the Thameslink trains never happened.

My commute of 20+years ago (0721 ex Hove, non-stop Gatwick to London Bridge, and the 1815 back to Hove) doesn't exist (along with the option to buy a season to Shoreham by Sea at the same price as a Hove season, and get the Arun valley+Dorking lines thrown in for free).
 

JonathanH

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The stupid thing about this is that if the planned Thameslink service had actually been provided there would have been direct Thameslink trains from Hove to London Bridge and beyond.
Instead of that the Southern West coastway direct trains to London Bridge got canned, the Thameslink trains never happened.
A Thameslink service from Littlehampton, West Coastway stations and Hove to London Bridge and beyond did run from May 2018 until a few years ago, but relied on some inefficient crewing arrangements, eg empty stock from Preston Park (one unit there and the other at Littlehampton) and drivers from Brighton, so was pulled. I don't think there were ever Thameslink only fares from the West Coastway for it though.

In its place there is a peak time Southern service from the West Coastway to London Bridge and back (0646 Hove, 1733 back), but it doesn't run at the times you recall.
 

allbarbarry

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As someone who has travelled the route along the West Coastway to/from London fairly regularly in the past, there are some less obvious, but cheaper and just as equally valid tickets out there - albeit finding these does take some considerable time and a substantial deal of hassle to use.
 
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Thanks for the info and points of view everyone. I am now looking at possible season tickets, now that I am in 3 days per week. Going to look at all options.

One thing I would recommend to Govia is put some ticket inspectors on Thameslink, the amount of people I speak with who don’t seem to pay for travelling on Thameslink is actually baffling. Yet southern is checked most days, Thameslink only ever been checked once
 

Watershed

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Thanks for the info and points of view everyone. I am now looking at possible season tickets, now that I am in 3 days per week. Going to look at all options.

One thing I would recommend to Govia is put some ticket inspectors on Thameslink, the amount of people I speak with who don’t seem to pay for travelling on Thameslink is actually baffling. Yet southern is checked most days, Thameslink only ever been checked once
Thameslink branded trains are operated using just a driver - they don't have any other staff rostered. From time to time, there will be Revenue Protection staff checking tickets, but obviously they don't come anywhere close to covering a majority of trains.

Meanwhile all Southern trains that operate beyond the Brighton Mainline are rostered to have an Onboard Supervisor, who is responsible for checking tickets and other customer facing duties.
 
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