Hourly service from Aberdeen to Leeds

[fhs man 2]

Excuse me Mr Mancunian, but we are as cultured as you are if not more so. For 30 years, Leeds has been the base of Opera North and the Northern Ballet Theatre, and you can't get much more cultured than either of them.

And yes, I have often heard Leeds being described as the second city.

Your kinda both wrong Birmingham is the second city by size.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

By size Birmingham is first (The City of London is tiny).

I am much with tbtc on this.

 

[tbtc]

Excuse me Mr Mancunian, but we are as cultured as you are if not more so. For 30 years, Leeds has been the base of Opera North and the Northern Ballet Theatre, and you can't get much more cultured than either of them.

And yes, I have often heard Leeds being described as the second city.

Mr Mancunian?

I've lived in Yorkshire for almost twenty years (living and working in Leeds for part of that time). On many population counts Sheffield is bigger than the City of Manchester too, but I'd never claim that Sheffield was more important than Manchester.

Similarly I've heard that the city of Sunderland is bigger than the city of Newcastle, but its clear which the more culturally important one is.

Opera North is all well and good, but I’d imagine more train passengers are going to be attracted to travel from Scotland to watch Premiership Football etc in Manchester than Opera in Leeds. Just my opinion…

Yeah, and that's why Leeds is just as busy as Piccadilly & Victoria

…but Manchester has four city centre stations (as well as the trams). Leeds has just the one central station, so its no wonder that Leeds City Station looks busy.

The answer's pretty obvious though-just send them via the WCML! It's much quicker that way, doesn't clog up the already-congested TP core with long-distance trains that can get hugely delayed, and reduces journey times. This is why I'm absolutely happy for ICWC to run hourly pendolinos from Manchester & Birmingham to Glasgow & Edinburgh, giving both of Scotland's two major cities an hourly service down the WCML, much as Edinburgh has down the ECML currently.

So, five Pendolini an hour from Preston to Carstairs Junction? Really?

As for your earlier argument of 'SR services are too slow but you want to slow them down' Yes, if there's an express alternative.

You are aware that your plan would slow down the current Edinburgh – Aberdeen time? The hourly FSR service is non-stop from Haymarket to Leuchars, so by stopping at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy it’d be a slower journey for long distance passengers.

EC Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven, Aberdeen

Slower than the current Aberdeen trains.

Your kinda both wrong Birmingham is the second city by size.

That's the point I'm making though. Birmingham is clearly the second biggest urban area in the UK, but Manchester's culture means it is often referred to as the "second city" (wrongly on population grounds, sure, but it punches above its weight)

 

[calc7]

This would result in something like the following overlapping pattern of service

SR Edinburgh-Aberdeen: Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Cupar, Leuchars, Dundee, Broughty Ferry, Monifieth, Carnoustie, Arbroath, Montrose, Laurencekirk, Stonehaven, Portlethen, Aberdeen

EC Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven, Aberdeen

EC London-Edinburgh: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham/*, Newark/Retford Doncaster, York, Northallerton/* Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

XC SW-Newcastle: Birmingham NS, Tamworth/Burton on Trent, Derby, Chesterfield, Sheffield, (Wakefield Westgate, Leeds)/(Doncaster), York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

Why is the London-Edinburgh service being slowed down?
If anything I'd like to see the xx00 ex-KGX services be KGX-YRK-NCL-EDB only, perhaps stopping at one of Darlington and Berwick every hour.

I am happy to take the train for that distance, but to capture the marginal market for whom a train to Gatwick, a flight and a taxi/train is more convenient then speeds need to be increasing!

If EC can get the fasts down to 3h59m they might be onto something. I realise this seems like a big push from the current 4h25 but there is a lot of slack in the timetable (I've arrived 11 minutes early into York before, and the same into EDB).

 

[Waverley125]

Not included in that were my re-arrangements of the two-hourly Aberdeen-London service, which I would plan to call York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Aberdeen and run every 2 hours through the day.

And the current Edinburgh-Aberdeen fast is does run 'fast', indeed. But for some reason it's a lot less well-loaded than the east coast HSTs, maybe because people would rather spend 2hr40 on a proper intercity train than 2hr25 on a train designed for small cross-country routes.

As for the 'scottish people going to Manchester for premiership football' I'd imagine that is a tiny minority of people, Leeds as a centre of business is a much bigger deal than Manchester (second largest financial & legal centre after London), and has a number of big corporate HQs in its vicinity (i.e. ASDA, Morrisons, Allied Irish). Manchester is undoubtedly big, but what's ignored is that GM is one of the poorest areas of the country. Do the comparison of Huddersfield, Harrogate or Halifax against Bury, Rochdale or Oldham.

This is why Leeds has the only major developments in terms of retail (2 massive new shopping centres being built), office space and residential development currently under construction, while Manchester has nothing. Manchester may have 'culture', which from what I understand amounts to the 90s drug scene and a football team who, as a proud loiner I shall refer only to as 'the scum', but is has suprisingly little else.

Leeds is the main railhead for a much more well-off, multi-centred conurbation, and should recieve the service equivalent to the needs of that conurbation.

As for 'five pendos an hour Preston-Carstairs'-yes, why not? If you alternate the calling points that actually works out quite well.

i.e. Manchester & Bham-Glasgow alternating calls between Oxenholme, Penrith & Lockerbie, as well as serving Motherwell, with London trains calling at Carlisle only. Reduce London-Glasgow journey time while keeping up connections for stations in between, the only change being a requirement for Lockerbie, Penrith & Oxenholme passengers to change at Preston onto one of the (post Blackpool wiring) half-hourly services southwards.

 

[tbtc]

As for the 'scottish people going to Manchester for premiership football' I'd imagine that is a tiny minority of people

I was comparing it to "Scottish people going to Leeds for a night at the opera" quote...

what's ignored is that GM is one of the poorest areas of the country. Do the comparison of Huddersfield, Harrogate or Halifax against Bury, Rochdale or Oldham

How patronising...

I could equally ask you to do the comparison of Armley, Middleton or Secroft against Chester, Wilmslow or Knutford but that would be an equally lopsided comparison which proves nothing...

This is why Leeds has the only major developments in terms of retail (2 massive new shopping centres being built), office space and residential development currently under construction, while Manchester has nothing

Maybe that's because Manchester already has the developments built - compare the White Rose Centre to the Trafford Centre, or compare the BBC at Salford to ITV on Kirkstall Road. Compare the canalside developments west of the pennines to Granary Wharf... I agree that Leeds is starting to catch up, but its from a long way behind

Manchester may have 'culture', which from what I understand amounts to the 90s drug scene and a football team who, as a proud loiner I shall refer only to as 'the scum', but is has suprisingly little else

You're really not helping yourself here...

As for 'five pendos an hour Preston-Carstairs'-yes, why not?

Because there's virtually no population between Lancaster and Greater Glasgow/ Edinburgh - that'd be massive overkill. However up the east you have much bigger centres of population to serve, which is one of the reasons that XC go that way.

 

[Bellwater]

Leeds is where you change trains for somewhere more important.. That is all

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Even with staggered calling patterns, you would never, ever fill 5 Pendolinos an hour between Preston and Scotland - you would be pushing to fill 2 390s and a Voyager!

 

[tbtc]

Even with staggered calling patterns, you would never, ever fill 5 Pendolinos an hour between Preston and Scotland - you would be pushing to fill 2 390s and a Voyager!

To put it in context, at the moment (between Lancaster and Carstairs Junction) there's

• Nine coach 390 most hours (but not all)
• Five coach Voyager hourly
• Three coach 185 roughly every other hour

(not all trains stopping at all stations)

...so that's maybe around fifteen coaches an hour (though some hours its a good bit less, some hours there's more)...

...and we are talking about fifty five coaches an hour (five extended Pendolino)? I'm all for improvements, but that's a little OTT

 

[Waverley125]

well 350s then, who cares? It makes no sense to send trains somewhere along a route which takes an hour longer because there are more people there.

(On this, you were espousing exactly the opposite view a few days ago on sending XC services via Leeds. Either they should divert and incur time penalties, or they shouldn't-which is it?)

And it's not a lopsided comparison, I was comparing surrounding large towns to surrounding large towns. If you want to put Armley, Middleton or Seacroft up against Ardwick, or Newton Heath or Salford, I'm happy to. But if you feel Leeds' most deprived inner city areas have to be compared to Manchester's commuter belt, then I think it's pretty obvious which city is better off.

Also, just on a routing decision sending the trains on to Manchester would be silly. There's enough capacity post-wiring to be going on with, so no magic difference with bringing in an SR service, and extending it the short way through one of the network's most congested IC routes only serves to create delay problems in the locality that get transferred from, say, the Edinburgh suburbs-it's silly.

I'm just unclear as to why you don't want this TBTC other than trains from Leeds apparently need to go 'somewhere else' to make them worthwhile, and that SR's short-formed express (which people clearly turn down over an HST) doesn't need improving on (it clearly does).

so please, why are you against this? I don't understand. As far as I see it there are several clear benefits

1. Long-formed expresses along the east coast. Yes, this could be done just within Scotland, and there are other options for calling patterns, but they're not amazingly loaded and rejected in favour of long-form trains that take longer.

2. More cross-Edinburgh services. Having to change in Edinburgh is a big deterrent to using the train, and there is a big market for cross-border trains from Fife & Beyond. This properly serves that, which is very beneficial.

3. Better use of existing paths. Consider it is quicker to use the WCML from Birmingham to Scotland, plus it's a 4.5 hour Journey. From Bristol & the SW there is a huge flying market, which rail's journey times make it very difficult to compete with. So there's no point running SW-Scotland via EC services, or with running up the ECML from Birmingham. As such, any XC service has to terminate at Leeds, or somewhere south of it (i.e. Sheffield). Given it's a good idea to continue XC to Newcastle, it makes more sense to use express paths north of York for a service which doesn't only go on for another 90 minutes after Edinburgh.

Cutting XC services back to Newcastle & bringing in a greater number of calls allows the Voyagers to do what they do best, i.e. regular stop inter-urban services, as well as improving reliability on the XC core which, in my experience, is incredibly prone to disruption & running late. Potentially also frees up enough units to run 3tph between Newcastle & Birmingham.

4. Increased services to the north of York. Given a London-Scotland 'fast' market can best be served by a 2-hourly Aberdeen service with a very limited calling pattern (i.e. York & Newcastle only), the hourly Edinburgh service can be slowed, as the Leeds-Aberdeen can provide the 'fast' for destinations north of York. Improves connections for stations in the north both to Scotland & to London.

 

[34D]

What culture does Manchester have? Dierdre Barlow and the cast of Coronation Street?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Please let's not turn this into a 'My city's better than yours' thread, it's god damn pointless.

 

[Stats]

This is all very well but the line capacity between York and Newcastle is limited to 4 LDHS ph + 1 TPE service. The aspiration for this capacity is to use it (post IEP) by running 2tph KGX - NCL - BWK - EDB and a semi-fast service KGX-NCL. The last LDHS path would be taken up by the XC service. So quite simply there is no room for a LDS - ABD service.

 

[Waverley125]

you can definitely fit more than 5tph up the ECML between Newcastle and York, more if you reopen the low level platforms at Northallerton so that Middlesbrough trains don't have to block the ECML when they call, or cross it.

Also, you definitely don't need a half-hourly service to London from Edinburgh, as the journey times simply don't work out. Currently you have an hourly 'fast' and a two-hourly 'semi fast'-I'd suggest it'd probably worthwhile reversing that, making the 'fast' faster, and the 'semi fast' slower, while adding extra services from the north of england to Scotland, which don't need to run to London, taking up capacity on the southern ECML where it isn't needed.

So maybe, from York-Newcastle

1tph EC LKX-EDB (York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
1tph EC LDS-ABD (York, Darlington, Newcastle)
1tph XC SW-NCL via Sheffield (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
2tph XC SW-NCL via Leeds (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
1tph TPE LDS-NCL (York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le street)
1tph TPE LDS-MBR (York, Thirsk, Northallerton)

before anyone jumps on this, a few 'point outs'

 

[MidnightFlyer]

So Newcastle loses its half-hourly London service?

 

[calc7]

So maybe, from York-Newcastle

1tph EC LKX-EDB (York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
1tph EC LDS-ABD (York, Darlington, Newcastle)
1tph XC SW-NCL via Sheffield (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
2tph XC SW-NCL via Leeds (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
1tph TPE LDS-NCL (York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le street)
1tph TPE LDS-MBR (York, Thirsk, Northallerton)

before anyone jumps on this, a few 'point outs'

Once again, why is the London service slower than the Leeds service?

 

[tbtc]

So maybe, from York-Newcastle

1tph EC LKX-EDB (York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
1tph EC LDS-ABD (York, Darlington, Newcastle)
1tph XC SW-NCL via Sheffield (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
2tph XC SW-NCL via Leeds (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
1tph TPE LDS-NCL (York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le street)
1tph TPE LDS-MBR (York, Thirsk, Northallerton)

before anyone jumps on this, a few 'point outs'

So Edinburgh loses some of its London services, Northallerton gets five trains an hour to York, Doncaster is wiped off the XC map, Leeds gets four trains an hour to Newcastle...

...basically every service via Leeds is improved and every service that doesn't serve Leeds gets cut?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What culture does Manchester have? Dierdre Barlow and the cast of Coronation Street?

I'm sure that London has no culture other than Pat Butcher?

And it's not a lopsided comparison, I was comparing surrounding large towns to surrounding large towns. If you want to put Armley, Middleton or Seacroft up against Ardwick, or Newton Heath or Salford, I'm happy to. But if you feel Leeds' most deprived inner city areas have to be compared to Manchester's commuter belt, then I think it's pretty obvious which city is better off

You were comparing parts of the Greater Manchester conurbation (Bury, Rochdale or Oldham) with Leeds's "commuter belt" (Harrogate having a fair bit of "green belt" between it and Leeds, and being in a North Yorkshire rather than West Yorkshire - hence me comparing posh parts of Cheshire with parts of the Leeds conurbation. Yes, Harrogate is posher than Oldham, but then parts of leafy Cheshire are posher than parts of Greater Leeds - what's your point?

3. Better use of existing paths. Consider it is quicker to use the WCML from Birmingham to Scotland, plus it's a 4.5 hour Journey. From Bristol & the SW there is a huge flying market, which rail's journey times make it very difficult to compete with. So there's no point running SW-Scotland via EC services, or with running up the ECML from Birmingham

Realistically there probably aren't enough people an hour travelling from Birmingham to Scotland to fill a Pacer. The service works by stopping at lots of decent sized places en route (Derby, Sheffield, Leeds, Newcastle...) providing a variety of links.

 

[Waverley125]

ok, I really didn't think I'd have to write down an entire East coast timetable recast, but there you go, when you're determined to misconstrue what i say.

EC services going via York

1tph Kings X-Newcastle Central: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

1tph Kings X-Edinburgh Waverley: Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton (every other hour), Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

1tp2h Kings X-Aberdeen: Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose

1tph Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven

XC services going via Doncaster

1tph SW-Newcastle: Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

XC services going via Leeds:

1tph SW-Newcastle: York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

TPE services via York

1tph Liverpool-Newcastle: (calls ommitted) York, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Newcastle: (Calls ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Middlesbrough: (Calls Ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby

so, as a result, we have

Doncaster-1tph XC to the South West, 2tph EC to north of York, plus Leeds & Hull services south to London

Northallerton-3tp2h to LKX, 5tph to York, 1tph to Newcastle, 1tp2h to Scotland, 2tph to Sheffield

Leeds-4tph to Newcastle, 3 fast 1 slow, 1tph to Scotland, at least 5tph express to York

London: 1tph to Edinburgh, semi fast, 1tp2h express

N.B. SOME SERVICES HAVE BEEN OMMITTED FOR CLARITY


Lastly tbtc, as for there being 'no major settlements between Lancaster and Carlisle', that's also true of Newcastle & Edinburgh. Yes, a Bham service linking all those places would be a good thing-but it doesn't need to continue to Edinburgh, and can probably, by the same principle, pick up people in Stafford, Crewe, Warrington, Wigan, Preston, Lancster and Carlisle. Given that the VT service current manages the journey to Edinburgh in 4 hours via the west coast, as opposed to 5 via the east, that probably works better-especially as it means some quite big places (e.g. Warrington, Wigan) get a regular service.

 

[OxtedL]

ok, I really didn't think I'd have to write down an entire East coast timetable recast

As a timetable recast, it seems a bit impractical on the face of it. You're packing a lot of trains through corridors where the demand is currently unproven against the capacity you're suggesting.

As a general rule, the railway is quite cautious about new services, as it's much easier and often more useful to serve current flows rather than go inventing new ones.

 

[calc7]

Waverley125 - think we're going to have to agree to disagree. You're royally screwing up the London-Edinburgh services to wedge in some sort of extension to Leeds (this is in my home county so I have no vested interest against it!). The reasoning appears to be more about justifying better stock/services north of Edinburgh than the actual need for such a service. The money is made on the ECML proper!

Edinburgh now gets a 1tp2h "fast" service - this is a step backwards. Northallerton seems to get a massive overprovision of IC services.

What is wrong (apart from stock shortages) with extending the current EDB-terminating XC Voyagers to ABD?

 

[ainsworth74]

Any reason for the massive expansion of services calling at Northallerton (and why slow down XC by calling there)? Doesn't seem to be much demand when I've been on services stopping there (and I've been on quite a few). Similarly I'm still unsure why there is a need to introduce a direct Leeds - Aberdeen service when the existing market is catered for by an hourly XC service to Edinburgh and then an easy change onto Scotrail (or changing at York for EC services).

 

[tbtc]

So maybe, from York-Newcastle

1tph EC LKX-EDB (York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle
1tph EC LDS-ABD (York, Darlington, Newcastle)
1tph XC SW-NCL via Sheffield (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
2tph XC SW-NCL via Leeds (York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham)
1tph TPE LDS-NCL (York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le street)
1tph TPE LDS-MBR (York, Thirsk, Northallerton)

before anyone jumps on this, a few 'point outs'

ok, I really didn't think I'd have to write down an entire East coast timetable recast, but there you go, when you're determined to misconstrue what i say.

EC services going via York

1tph Kings X-Newcastle Central: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

1tph Kings X-Edinburgh Waverley: Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton (every other hour), Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

1tp2h Kings X-Aberdeen: Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose

1tph Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven

XC services going via Doncaster

1tph SW-Newcastle: Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

XC services going via Leeds:

1tph SW-Newcastle: York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

TPE services via York

1tph Liverpool-Newcastle: (calls ommitted) York, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Newcastle: (Calls ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Middlesbrough: (Calls Ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby

so, as a result, we have

Doncaster-1tph XC to the South West, 2tph EC to north of York, plus Leeds & Hull services south to London

Northallerton-3tp2h to LKX, 5tph to York, 1tph to Newcastle, 1tp2h to Scotland, 2tph to Sheffield

Leeds-4tph to Newcastle, 3 fast 1 slow, 1tph to Scotland, at least 5tph express to York

London: 1tph to Edinburgh, semi fast, 1tp2h express

N.B. SOME SERVICES HAVE BEEN OMMITTED FOR CLARITY

I'd try to analyse your ideas, but I'm really confused - is the XC service two an hour via Leeds (as you first suggested) or one (as your second post suggests)?

Good news if you live in Northallerton or Leeds though I guess

 

[Stats]

you can definitely fit more than 5tph up the ECML between Newcastle and York, more if you reopen the low level platforms at Northallerton so that Middlesbrough trains don't have to block the ECML when they call, or cross it.

So you think you know better than those that have sophisticated modelling and timetabling software. The section between Northallerton and Newcastle is mostly two track with significant variations in the speed of services limiting the number of paths available. Flighting is already necessary to accommodate the current demand for this section of the ECML. Anyway, it doesn't matter because as long as Network Rail say there is only 4 LDHS paths they are not going to permit any more services.

ok, I really didn't think I'd have to write down an entire East coast timetable recast, but there you go, when you're determined to misconstrue what i say.

EC services going via York

1tph Kings X-Newcastle Central: Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark/Retford, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

1tph Kings X-Edinburgh Waverley: Stevenage, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Northallerton (every other hour), Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar

1tp2h Kings X-Aberdeen: Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Kirkcaldy, Inverkeithing, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose

1tph Leeds-Aberdeen: York, Darlington, Newcastle, Morpeth/Alnmouth, Berwick, Dunbar, Edinburgh Waverley, Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Leuchars, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven

In one fell swoop, you devalue the East Coast franchise vastly reducing the premiums that DfT will receive.

When the Government's whole rail policy is to speed intercity services up, you recast the timetable to slow everything down. This makes both Newcastle and Edinburgh services grossly unattractive and encourages modal switch to air.

XC services going via Doncaster

1tph SW-Newcastle: Sheffield, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

XC services going via Leeds:

1tph SW-Newcastle: York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham

TPE services via York

1tph Liverpool-Newcastle: (calls ommitted) York, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Newcastle: (Calls ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Chester le Street

1tph Manc Airport-Middlesbrough: (Calls Ommitted) Garforth, York, Thirsk, Northallerton, Yarm, Thornaby

so, as a result, we have

Doncaster-1tph XC to the South West, 2tph EC to north of York, plus Leeds & Hull services south to London

Northallerton-3tp2h to LKX, 5tph to York, 1tph to Newcastle, 1tp2h to Scotland, 2tph to Sheffield

Leeds-4tph to Newcastle, 3 fast 1 slow, 1tph to Scotland, at least 5tph express to York

London: 1tph to Edinburgh, semi fast, 1tp2h express

Well, that eats up all the available capacity and more. Where exactly do you suggest all the freight services go?

I wonder why, of all the aspirations for services on the ECML - and there are many - does a Leeds-Aberdeen service not feature. Could it be there is no demand?

 

[Waverley125]

this doesn't 'royally screw up the KX-Edinburgh service', it uses the existing calling pattern for the 2-hourly semi fast and reverses it with the hourly 'fast' which, in my experience, is empty south of York, and brings back the calling points it needs to survive as a service.

then brings in an 'express' to Edinburgh on a frequency that might actually be sustainable-if you're catering for a flow of passengers who care only about reduced journey times, you're competing against flying-which means you don't need such a goddam high frequency because the planes run every 3, if not 4, hours.

As to 'whats wrong with extending the Voyagers to Aberdeen', well, several things. Firstly, there's no need for the service to run from the SW, because nobody travels through. But by exposing your service to so many opportunities for delays, you create massive interlinkages between different bits of the country than can completely screw up movements in any given city (e.g. a morning Delay in Dundee screws up rush hour in Bristol).

Moreover, as I've said so so so many times, it takes longer! If you want good connections from the West Midlands to Scotland, go via the WCML it is an hour quicker that way. An XC service from SW-Aberdeen doesn't serve that market, it serves solely the East Midlands & Sheffield, because that is the only place people will use the train for that journey. That being the case, much better to save units, potentially up frequency and expose to fewer delays by cutting XC services back at Newcastle.

Northallerton doesn't have a 'massive overprovision', it rectifies the current massive underprovision which suppresses demand. For a town of a good size, which acts as a railhead for a very large area of the county, service is massively below par. I don't think that a total of 5tph is excessive. However, if you do, I see no reason you couldn't alternate between the Sheffield & Leeds XC services southbound, which would give a total of

1tph EC to Newcastle
1tp2h EC to Edinburgh
1tp2h XC via Leeds
1tp2h XC via Sheffield
1tph TPE to Middlesbrough
1tph TPE to Newcastle

so, total of 4.5 trains per hour, or 9 calling trains (in all directions) each hour.

As for capacity, this is speculate, I admit I could be wrong. However, bringing back the low-level platforms at Northallerton for 8 car length trains (surely, given you only need concrete & bus shelters, a few hundred thousand) would remove a good bit of the bottleneck, as it would allow all trains for Middlesbrough/Sunderland to dive under the ECML rather than crossing it, so the only trains blocking the ECML would be the 3.5 tph to the north.

 

[ainsworth74]

Northallerton doesn't have a 'massive overprovision', it rectifies the current massive underprovision which suppresses demand.

I disagree, I've seen nothing at Northallerton (and I've been through it plenty of times) to suggest that it needs anything like the expansion you've proposed. It currently has 1tph to Newcastle, 1tph to Middlesbrough, 2tph to Leeds/Manchester, roughly 3tph to York and a fairly regular service to London from GC (with some EC services as well) and a few morning/evening services to/from Edinburgh. That strikes me as being perfectly matched to meet the demand. On routes that see a regular hourly service (with good quality rolling stock) I think you're going to be struggling to suggest that there is much in the way of pent up demand.

I would also still like an answer to my question please:

Similarly I'm still unsure why there is a need to introduce a direct Leeds - Aberdeen service when the existing market is catered for by an hourly XC service to Edinburgh and then an easy change onto Scotrail (or changing at York for EC services).

 

[tbtc]

this doesn't 'royally screw up the KX-Edinburgh service', it uses the existing calling pattern for the 2-hourly semi fast and reverses it with the hourly 'fast' which, in my experience, is empty south of York, and brings back the calling points it needs to survive as a service.

then brings in an 'express' to Edinburgh on a frequency that might actually be sustainable-if you're catering for a flow of passengers who care only about reduced journey times, you're competing against flying-which means you don't need such a goddam high frequency because the planes run every 3, if not 4, hours

You realise that with so many other trains on the ECML (including so many stopping on the main line platforms at Northallerton etc) there's no way you could get the headline London - Edinburgh time under 4hrs on a regular basis (beyond a token one train a day southbound, leaving very early in the morning)?

Rail can't compete (with air) on headline time, it needs to compete on frequency.

As to 'whats wrong with extending the Voyagers to Aberdeen', well, several things. Firstly, there's no need for the service to run from the SW, because nobody travels through. But by exposing your service to so many opportunities for delays, you create massive interlinkages between different bits of the country than can completely screw up movements in any given city (e.g. a morning Delay in Dundee screws up rush hour in Bristol)

Yet you want to introduce a 300 mile (plus) hourly service from Aberdeen to Leeds?

Northallerton doesn't have a 'massive overprovision', it rectifies the current massive underprovision which suppresses demand. For a town of a good size, which acts as a railhead for a very large area of the county, service is massively below par. I don't think that a total of 5tph is excessive

Northallerton is the railhead for a very large area of the country. A very empty area of the country too.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think we are now finding drastic solutions for unimportant issues...

- Northallerton does NOT need that many services
- The current hourly (and quite fast!) SR service EDB-ABD works quite well, plus extensions allow a good service north thereof too
- It matters little what a city's cultural features are: what is important is the demand for rail between the two
- Removing the half-hourly service from Newcastle and the hourly fast service ex-EDB would be massively unpopular and very hard to justify after all the hype over Eureka!
- A lot of what you plan could be covered by extending the Plymouth services to / from Aberdeen - this would provide a Leeds link without shafting Doncaster (XC) and Newcastle / Edinburgh (EC) in the process.

 

[Waverley125]

I think we are now finding drastic solutions for unimportant issues...

- Northallerton does NOT need that many services
- The current hourly (and quite fast!) SR service EDB-ABD works quite well, plus extensions allow a good service north thereof too
- It matters little what a city's cultural features are: what is important is the demand for rail between the two
- Removing the half-hourly service from Newcastle and the hourly fast service ex-EDB would be massively unpopular and very hard to justify after all the hype over Eureka!
- A lot of what you plan could be covered by extending the Plymouth services to / from Aberdeen - this would provide a Leeds link without shafting Doncaster (XC) and Newcastle / Edinburgh (EC) in the process.

-It's an improvement of 1.5 trains an hour, hardly unmanageable

-Then why do so many people change in Edinburgh, and why are there such regular complaints about short-form trains on that route? 2 158s is insufficient, which is why the HSTs are, without fail, rammed.

-My proposal does not remove either of those. As specified above, Edinburgh has 1.5tph to LKX, Newcastle has 2.5. Both have a 2-hourly express (i.e. Edinburgh, Newcastle, York, Peterborough)

-It could, but that would be both bad and pointless for all the reasons I've mentioned and nobody has provided a counter to. Using one trainset to do Plymouth-Aberdeen, when nobody is doing Bham-Aberdeen along that route, let alone from Plymouth, is hugely inefficient in terms of set use, and in terms of delay exposure. Also none of those places get shafted because, as I've shown above, this could be done by keeping the existing service and cutting it back at Newcastle.

I will repeat this, for everyone's apparent benefit

the only places that lose services under this proposal are Wakefield Westgate, Sheffield, Chesterfield, Derby, Burton on Trent and Tamworth, as they lose a through service to Edinburgh

Given that it is quicker for Burton & Tamworth passengers to change in Birmingham, and everyone else can change in Newcastle, I don't see a problem here.

You realise that with so many other trains on the ECML (including so many stopping on the main line platforms at Northallerton etc) there's no way you could get the headline London - Edinburgh time under 4hrs on a regular basis (beyond a token one train a day southbound, leaving very early in the morning)?

Rail can't compete (with air) on headline time, it needs to compete on frequency.

Even everyone's beloved 'fast' to Edinburgh (Peterborough, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick) doesn't do that, it takes 4hr 25min to do the journey. The only 3hr59 train is, as you point out, the token once a day service. The current line is not conducive to times less than 4 hr 15, so it's best to accept that, and focus on frequency.

3 trains every 2 hours (i.e. one every 40 minutes) is much better than the airlines, and is as good a frequency as currently Edinburgh has.

 

[LE Greys]

Well, from my not-entirely-biased point of view, I would be glad to see improved connectivity from the southern half of the ECML to northern points and Scotland. I've had to do an awkward double-change at Doncaster and York to do Stevenage-Aberdeen sometimes, although the single change at York is reasonably OK. Going the other way, I'm very lucky in that the 14:50 calls at Stevenage, but the 09:55 does not, and actually a single change at York is an improvement on York and Peterborough.

Still, I agree that getting East Coast to do an hourly Leeds-Aberdeen is a bit much. Maybe it would be possible in a number of circumstances, but all rely on a major upgrade. Possibly:
Tilt (higher average speeds)
Reopen the Leamside (divert freight, so more capacity)
HS2 finally reaches Leeds

Otherwise, extensions of the XC service would probably be a better bet. A bit more direct access to Scotland would be helpful, perhaps by stopping some of the Edinburgh trains at Peterborough (perhaps one every two hours) or the odd Newcastle train at Stevenage. Still, if it's headline times we're after, then that's pointless.

 

[Waverley125]

Well, from my not-entirely-biased point of view, I would be glad to see improved connectivity from the southern half of the ECML to northern points and Scotland. I've had to do an awkward double-change at Doncaster and York to do Stevenage-Aberdeen sometimes, although the single change at York is reasonably OK. Going the other way, I'm very lucky in that the 14:50 calls at Stevenage, but the 09:55 does not, and actually a single change at York is an improvement on York and Peterborough.

Still, I agree that getting East Coast to do an hourly Leeds-Aberdeen is a bit much. Maybe it would be possible in a number of circumstances, but all rely on a major upgrade. Possibly:
Tilt (higher average speeds)
Reopen the Leamside (divert freight, so more capacity)
HS2 finally reaches Leeds

Otherwise, extensions of the XC service would probably be a better bet. A bit more direct access to Scotland would be helpful, perhaps by stopping some of the Edinburgh trains at Peterborough (perhaps one every two hours) or the odd Newcastle train at Stevenage. Still, if it's headline times we're after, then that's pointless.

Why is it better to extend XC services? Nobody has every justified this, other than that 'the services exist, ergo they are good'. Given that it reduces service through the core, using poor units, doesn't extend north of Edinburgh (mostly), and creates delay exposure elsewhere it's clearly not.

As for better connectivity in the south, I refer you to my earlier post-hourly from Stevenage to Newcastle & Edinburgh, hourly from Peterborough to Edinburgh, two-hourly to Aberdeen also calling at Peterborough. This means that no station on the ECML has more than a single change for scottish services, and, of the stations on it, the only ones without direct services (currently served by EC) are Grantham, Newark & Retford (which would be either change Newcastle or Doncaster)