Hotel Power On Trains

[SpacePhoenix]

Seeing this in another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3024814&postcount=1)

It's so warm the guard has opened the corridor connection and the cab door on the rear driving vehicle to cool it down a bit!

It got me wondering how much power is required to run the hotel power of a train. Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

 

[pdeaves]

Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

Yes, it could, but would it be worth it?

 

[edwin_m]

The Irish ran generator cars on many of their loco-hauled sets and I believe they are still used with the Enterprise, despite those locos being able to generate hotel power themselves. And I think some of the Irish DMUs have a second engine in each car for on-board power.

According to one of those programmes on Quest, VIA Rail in Canada has been upgrading its locos including adding an on-board genset as this is apparently cheaper to run than getting hotel power from the main engine.

In rail transport, head-end power (HEP) or electric train supply (ETS) is the electrical power distribution system on a passenger train. The power source, usually a locomotive at the front or 'head' of a train (or a generator car), provides the electricity used for lighting, electrical and other 'hotel' needs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-end_power

 

[Marklund]

Seeing this in another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3024814&postcount=1)



It got me wondering how much power is required to run the hotel power of a train. Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

Hotel Power :roll:

Anyway, been done.

also this

 

[hwl]

As starting point assume 35KW /car (modern stock) for hotel load with everything on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It got me wondering how much power is required to run the hotel power of a train. Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

State Railways of Thailand do that with their LHCS, and the rattling makes it feel like LHCS is a DMU, and the fumes stink.

 

[CyrusWuff]

It got me wondering how much power is required to run the hotel power of a train. Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

Given the general lack of shore supply along the route, Chiltern installed gen sets in their DVTs to provide hotel power when the loco isn't running. I'm not sure whether it could also be used on the move in the event of an ETS/HEP failure on the loco though.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

hmmm... this could go a long way...

Hotel power, or ETH or ETS (Electrical train Heating or Supply) is generally set as 1000v DC BUT there are variations, and some ETH systems arent as compatible as the abbreviations may suggest. look at the 442 ETH, need I say more?

some trains are capable of an ETH supply which is sufficient for the train it is supposed to feed (I.e its index), others aren't, and it depends on the ETH index the locomotive can provide as to whether it needs an ETHEL or generator car or not. a 37 uses tappings of the main engine for ETH supply so the ETH index is low, whereas a 31 has an independent genie giving a much higher ETH index rating.

MUs on the other hand have electrical requirement within unit but their electrical requirement within unit and across other cars is already changing. how a MU decides its ETH load is different to that an EMU needs as an electrical unit, and shows the preciseness a post privatisation security fa
re is needed

 

[CosherB]

Seeing this in another thread (http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=3024814&postcount=1)



It got me wondering how much power is required to run the hotel power of a train. Could a small diesel gen pack be designed to provided just hotel power for a train (lights, air con/heating and maybe toilets)?

Er, no.

 

[Jonny]

State Railways of Thailand do that with their LHCS, and the rattling makes it feel like LHCS is a DMU, and the fumes stink.

That sounds like very much a botched job/implementation though.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Er, no.

What about a scaled down version of the gen packs used on the 230s?

Can the drivers isolate the traction package so that the hotel power is the only power being consumed (apart from the cabs)?

 

[jopsuk]

Most charter trains sets have a generator car don't they? And the Royal train, yellow test trains. Because they're all often hauled by locos that don't have ETS.

But I don't know what problem you're trying to fix?

 

[D365]

But I don't know what problem you're trying to fix?

My bet is gathering ideas for an upcoming Class 442 'idea'...

 

[NotATrainspott]

A single diesel powerpack has to be able to provide basic hotel power for a full length IEP train under the train technical specification.

 

[route:oxford]

Hotel Power :roll:

Anyway, been done.

It always seemed so terribly wasteful to haul around 80 tonnnes of converted loco to deliver 30kW of power.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

My bet is gathering ideas for an upcoming Class 442 'idea'...

Most charter trains sets have a generator car don't they? And the Royal train, yellow test trains. Because they're all often hauled by locos that don't have ETS.

But I don't know what problem you're trying to fix?

For times like for example there's been a trespass incident and the juice rail has been switched off, on a hot day it'll get stuffy fairly quickly, you might end up with people pulling the emergency egress handle and de-training themselves. Depending on track layouts and what's stuck where that could then result in more lines being blocked.

@d365 say you was on a 225 and it got stuck with because of OLE problems, depending on where your train is in relation to the damaged OLE your train might loose power. How would you feel if it's 30 or 40+ degrees onboard that train? (don't know if the DVTs of a 225 set could handle the weight of a gen set for providing hotel power)

 

[route:oxford]

@d365 say you was on a 225 and it got stuck with because of OLE problems, depending on where your train is in relation to the damaged OLE your train might loose power. How would you feel if it's 30 or 40+ degrees onboard that train? (don't know if the DVTs of a 225 set could handle the weight of a gen set for providing hotel power)

The 225 sets will soon be relegated to secondary routes, the replacement units have got the power-failure support that you are seeking.

Overall, there isn't much point for Mk4 stock.

 

[CosherB]

My bet is gathering ideas for an upcoming Class 442 'idea'...

Quite ..... another thread deserving of a 'fantasy' sub section!

 

[D365]

@d365 say you was on a 225 and it got stuck with because of OLE problems, depending on where your train is in relation to the damaged OLE your train might loose power. How would you feel if it's 30 or 40+ degrees onboard that train? (don't know if the DVTs of a 225 set could handle the weight of a gen set for providing hotel power)

Funny you should say that as I have been stuck on VTEC trains several times in the last year due to your aforementioned OLE problems. As far as I'm aware the only times I've experienced overheating coaches was due to the air con failing whilst in service, not during a stoppage.

 

[Marklund]

Er, no.

Err, why not?
See previous examples, and add the DVTs that had a small generator fitted too.

 

[CosherB]

Err, why not?
See previous examples, and add the DVTs that had a small generator fitted too.

Tiny numbers on very specific applications. Yes, it has been done, but it's not a general solution for train hotel power in the grand scheme. Another febrile idea by the OP, perhaps?

 

[Marklund]

Another febrile idea by the OP, perhaps?

Oh there's plenty of wibble on this forum, I agree.
Yet who'd have thunk that diesel engines would have been put on 319s 6 years ago?

 

[broadgage]

I suspect that for most loco hauled stock, that it would be more cost effective to use the loco to generate hotel power, as indeed is the norm in the UK.
A single large diesel engine is almost certainly cheaper to buy and run than two engines, one for haulage and one for hotel power.

Generator vans will continue to be required for charters and other specials hauled by locos not equipped for ETS.

For modern electric trains, is should IMHO be a requirement to fit an auxiliary generator able to supply air conditioning throughout.
Mainly for use when the wires come down. I fear that sooner or later a multi hour delay on a hot day is going result in loss of life from heat stress.

 

[bastien]

That sounds like very much a botched job/implementation though.

That's one way of putting it! Their First Class sleeper coaches have this, the engine sounds like it's at full revs, permanently. Lovely cold air-con though :roll:

 

[daikilo]

There is no simple answer to the original question. The required power-to-wheel output of a power unit will depend upon the train and the route whereas the hotel power will depend upon usage (number of carriages to be supplied, type of hotel power). IIRC, an airconditoned coach in summer may require up to 40kw of power, which is not a lot for a 3-coach DMU but becomes significant on a 10-coach LHCS.

Also, power required for "hotel" uses is generally constant for a given weather condition 'excluding open doors on a suburban operation in summer/winter) whereas traction power will vary from full to zero (even negative with regen) so optimising power management becomes crucial.

As regards the route, turnarounds become significant; if they occur every 2-hours and take 30 minutes it may make sense to run all hotel power from a dedicated source and just use the main power unit to haul/push the train. Conversely, if the distance is 8 hours and full haulage power is only required for a part then it may be better to use a "smart" distribution of power from a single main power unit.

If the main power supply is electric then I doubt that a separate power source for hotel power ever makes sense unless used as a back-up if the power supply is particularly unreliable.

 

[MichaelWells]

Most charter trains sets have a generator car don't they? And the Royal train, yellow test trains. Because they're all often hauled by locos that don't have ETS.

But I don't know what problem you're trying to fix?

Yes the Yellow Test Trains have generators, TIC2 RSC3 MENTOR at least all have on board generators, other trains need a spare generator vehicle, but these do have alot more to work than just sockets (although that does work the kettle)

 

[Spartacus]

It always seemed so terribly wasteful to haul around 80 tonnnes of converted loco to deliver 30kW of power.

Only really done as a short term measure until 37/4s were released, then found use on charters, irritating the hell out of photographers for a few years, so it was much simpler than uong a diesel generator into a GUV or something, given their lifespan as ETHELs.

Speaking of 37s, I remember being told of a double headed 37 working which someone in the operating department had worked out was effectively barely more than single headed due to the ETS load rendering one 37 as little more than a powered ETHEL!

 

[SpacePhoenix]

If the main power supply is electric then I doubt that a separate power source for hotel power ever makes sense unless used as a back-up if the power supply is particularly unreliable.

There might be more need for a backup hotel supply in 3rd rail territory as you've got situations like trespass incidents where the juice rail has to be switched off. afaik in OLE areas the juice doesn't get turned off unless a trespasser has climbed something that'll take them dangerously close to the OLE.

In an OLE area apart from something bringing down the overhead lines I can't think of any reason the OLE would get switched off that isn't for maintance

 

[CosherB]

There might be more need for a backup hotel supply in 3rd rail territory as you've got situations like trespass incidents where the juice rail has to be switched off. afaik in OLE areas the juice doesn't get turned off unless a trespasser has climbed something that'll take them dangerously close to the OLE.

In an OLE area apart from something bringing down the overhead lines I can't think of any reason the OLE would get switched off that isn't for maintance

You're now repeating your own posts from two days ago!

 

[Townsend Hook]

Yes the Yellow Test Trains have generators, TIC2 RSC3 MENTOR at least all have on board generators, other trains need a spare generator vehicle, but these do have alot more to work than just sockets (although that does work the kettle)

Not to mention the UTUs, New Measurement Train and the TRU (cl. 950). Generators also fitted to the DVTs (not that the DVTs are ever used), DBSOs and the standalone Mk1 generator vans.