Horsham to London via Dorking

[387star]

Have there ever been trains from horsham bound for london via crawley and gatwick re-routed via dorking?

Would there be demand for a portsmouth/south coast to dorking/leatherhead/epsom/sutton direct service?

I am not sure if it is a doo route think it is beyond dorking

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Well... some Waterloo to Portsmouth services used to run via Epsom up until the mid 1980s; not sure of the stopping pattern though.

It would probably be a bit difficult to path anything extra through from either terminus these days given that Epsom has 5 trains an hour off peak from Victoria* and 4 an hour from Waterloo and of these 9, 6 an hour continue below Epsom.



*Assuming Southern run everything they're supposed to...

 

[tsr]

The running lines on much of this route are still called the "Portsmouth Lines" and were once a principal route for a lot of coastal services via Horsham and Barnham until overall demand for stations on the route via Gatwick increased.

Proportionally, there is certainly a fair bit of interchange at Horsham to/from the coast - but numbers are very low anyway off-peak on this route, partially due to the level of service in the evenings and the lack of any on Sundays - and unfortunately there would be little capacity, both within the signalling system and power supplies, for coastal services. This would be a consideration once you also include the "Metro" all-stations and semi-fast services which call at Warnham, Ockley and Holmwood - hourly off-peak, and half-hourly during the peak. The line can also suffer from physical track quality issues which affect services from time to time, sometimes following intensive use.

This route is used for London Victoria-Gatwick Airport via Horsham services when there is major planned engineering work closing the routes via East Croydon / Redhill / the Quarry Lines. During such times such a half-hourly service cannot reliably run alongside the basic hourly stopping service, so the latter is usually suspended. Hopefully this gives an idea about capacity.

This route is cleared for DOO between London Bridge / London Victoria and Dorking via all the Southern routes, and a conductor must be provided for various reasons between Dorking and Horsham. Conductors are often diagrammed to "assist" with revenue duties and customer service between Dorking & Epsom / Sutton. Driver depots signing these routes include Epsom, Horsham and Norwood, with all conductor work covered by either Horsham or Selhurst (under current GTR/DfT proposals, only Selhurst). Conductors usually dispatch between Horsham and Holmwood inclusive on the way Up / Dorking and Warnham/Horsham inclusive on the way Down. Diagrams can include stops further North during engineering work.

In an emergency, subject to the right depots being able to cover the work, coastal services and also stopping Horsham-London Bridge services can and do divert via Dorking vice Gatwick Airport. This only happens a few times a year on an unplanned basis, really.

 

[387star]

The running lines on much of this route are still called the "Portsmouth Lines" and were once a principal route for a lot of coastal services via Horsham and Barnham until overall demand for stations on the route via Gatwick increased.

Proportionally, there is certainly a fair bit of interchange at Horsham to/from the coast - but numbers are very low anyway off-peak on this route, partially due to the level of service in the evenings and the lack of any on Sundays - and unfortunately there would be little capacity, both within the signalling system and power supplies, for coastal services. This would be a consideration once you also include the "Metro" all-stations and semi-fast services which call at Warnham, Ockley and Holmwood - hourly off-peak, and half-hourly during the peak. The line can also suffer from physical track quality issues which affect services from time to time, sometimes following intensive use.

This route is used for London Victoria-Gatwick Airport via Horsham services when there is major planned engineering work closing the routes via East Croydon / Redhill / the Quarry Lines. During such times such a half-hourly service cannot reliably run alongside the basic hourly stopping service, so the latter is usually suspended. Hopefully this gives an idea about capacity.

This route is cleared for DOO between London Bridge / London Victoria and Dorking via all the Southern routes, and a conductor must be provided for various reasons between Dorking and Horsham. Conductors are often diagrammed to "assist" with revenue duties and customer service between Dorking & Epsom / Sutton. Driver depots signing these routes include Epsom, Horsham and Norwood, with all conductor work covered by either Horsham or Selhurst (under current GTR/DfT proposals, only Selhurst). Conductors usually dispatch between Horsham and Holmwood inclusive on the way Up / Dorking and Warnham/Horsham inclusive on the way Down. Diagrams can include stops further North during engineering work.

In an emergency, subject to the right depots being able to cover the work, coastal services and also stopping Horsham-London Bridge services can and do divert via Dorking vice Gatwick Airport. This only happens a few times a year on an unplanned basis, really.

Never knew epsom had a depot

Thanks for the reply

Seems jointed track is still in use in parts

A very scenic line after dorking was quite surprised . Not sure what. The track problems are you mention?

I guess patronage is too low to increase evening services - last train at 2006 from epsom seemed surprising

I take it south west trains never venture past dorking

 

[swt_passenger]

Have there ever been trains from horsham bound for london via crawley and gatwick re-routed via dorking?

Would there be demand for a portsmouth/south coast to dorking/leatherhead/epsom/sutton direct service?

I am not sure if it is a doo route think it is beyond dorking

There isn't capacity to do what you want in the approaches to London, even if trains could get from the coast to Sutton. Periodically this gets asked in connection with a potential Arundel east chord, but NR explain that you could only do it by removing trains from other routes to make capacity into an appropriate London terminus.

 

[tsr]

Never knew epsom had a depot

Indeed. It has a small Southern drivers' depot.

Thanks for the reply

No problem!

Seems jointed track is still in use in parts

Yes, that's right, in places. And axle counter signalling from Betchworth Tunnel to Warnham.

A very scenic line after dorking was quite surprised .

It's lovely Some especially nice glimpses behind the waiting shelter at Ockley, from there to Holmwood, and if you look through the gap in the hedge behind the old signal box (in a sadly dilapidated state) at Holmwood itself.

Not sure what. The track problems are you mention?

There are all sorts of issues prevalent on this route including embankment subsidence (see the Ockley landslip of past years), badger setts, cyclic top and so on. Many of these can lead to rough rides and a vicious circle of damage, as well as quite severe speed restrictions. This has always been one of the worst Southern routes for experiencing poor ride quality; there was once a local instruction for conductors to remain seated where possible on one section due to the possibility of rough rides...

I guess patronage is too low to increase evening services - last train at 2006 from epsom seemed surprising

There is one late evening service from London Victoria, via Epsom et al, on weekdays; other than that there is very little evening service to speak of, and nothing on Saturday evenings or Sundays. As has popped up occasionally on these forums before, I would agree that the low patronage and low service frequency both encourage each other into a downward spiral, really.

I take it south west trains never venture past dorking

Not any more on this route, nope!

 

[swt class 450]

I use this line a lot and the Dorking to Horsham section has an appalling service. On Mondays to Fridays all trains finish by around 20:00 (with one southbound service at around 00:00). On Saturdays all trains finish by around 18:00. On Sundays there are no trains at all. Personally i think that there needs to be a service seven days a week until 00:00. Even Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea have a better more useful service.

This line seems rather neglected as well. Especially Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham railway stations. They have loads of broken equipment. Southern dont seem that bothered about this line. Personally i would like to see SWT take over this line and run an hourly service to London Waterloo (seven days a week until 00:00) using 450s (or 455s would be fine).

Another suggestion is maybe having a shuttle running all day every hour between Dorking and Horsham with passengers changing at Dorking or Horsham for connecting onward services.

It is indeed a very nice scenic line though.

 

[Deepgreen]

Waterloo to Horsham trains used to run until (I think) the late 1980s) - headcode 15. The Victoria to Bognors were withdrawn in (again, I think, 1984) having become peak only during M-Fs. The formation was normally Cig/Big/Cig. The first stop was Sutton, then Leatherhead, Dorking, Horsham and all(-ish) statons onwards. I recall an occasion in 1981 when snow was prevalent and many trains were not running, when the 1720 Victoria to Bognor called at Sutton (where I boarded) then additionally at Epsom (where I alighted). I happened to join the buffet car and it was an incongruous journey between Sutton and Epsom where we touched about 90mph, amid furious arcing in the very deep snow) near Ewell East on what was for me a suburban journey in a fully functioning catering car!

There also used to be trains which reversed at Holmwood to London.

Shots of Waterloo to Horsham and Victoria to Bognor Regis (passing Epsom Common) attached.

 

[Deepgreen]

I use this line a lot and the Dorking to Horsham section has an appalling service. On Mondays to Fridays all trains finish by around 20:00 (with one southbound service at around 00:00). On Saturdays all trains finish by around 18:00. On Sundays there are no trains at all. Personally i think that there needs to be a service seven days a week until 00:00. Even Three Oaks / Doleham / Winchelsea have a better more useful service.

This line seems rather neglected as well. Especially Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham railway stations. They have loads of broken equipment. Southern dont seem that bothered about this line. Personally i would like to see SWT take over this line and run an hourly service to London Waterloo (seven days a week until 00:00) using 450s (or 455s would be fine).

Another suggestion is maybe having a shuttle running all day every hour between Dorking and Horsham with passengers changing at Dorking or Horsham for connecting onward services.

It is indeed a very nice scenic line though.

Agreed - and not helped the the current policy of cancellations owing the conductor unavailability. It has often been mooted that a Waterloo to Bognor/other coastal location service might be viable, but capacity constraints nearer London probably don't help the case for this. While the intermediate stations between Dorking and Horsham are very lightly used (although probably not as lightly as my/our own Betchworth!), there may be a case for a through service on the route - I haven't looked at latent demand, but my gut feeling is that this 'central' route through Surrey might offer more oppportunities than are used at present, especially to free up BML space, perhaps. The signalling headways are poor, but it needn't be a Metro-frequency service.

 

[swt class 450]

Agreed - and not helped the the current policy of cancellations owing the conductor unavailability. It has often been mooted that a Waterloo to Bognor/other coastal location service might be viable, but capacity constraints nearer London probably don't help the case for this. While the intermediate stations between Dorking and Horsham are very lightly used (although probably not as lightly as my/our own Betchworth!), there may be a case for a through service on the route - I haven't looked at latent demand, but my gut feeling is that this 'central' route through Surrey might offer more oppportunities than are used at present, especially to free up BML space, perhaps. The signalling headways are poor, but it needn't be a Metro-frequency service.

Yes indeed. Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham are lightly used but they do definitely get more passengers than our local station Betchworth. I usually see a few other passengers board or alight at Holmwood / Ockley / Warnham most times that i am there. Where as with Betchworth most of the time i am the only passenger to board or alight (although last week a foreign tourist alighted at Betchworth after realising they got on the wrong train at Gatwick Airport).

As you say as the BML is so overcrowded so it could make sense to divert some or all of the south coast services via this line to free up some space. This line is definitely not used as much as it could be.

I am sure that if SWT ran the service it would be much more reliable as well. The Dorking to Horsham trains seem to be one of the first to cancel when they have Guard shortages (they even regularly cancel the last trains of the day).

 

[Philip C]

The basic Victoria - Bognor service left Victoria at xx02 and called at Sutton, Dorking, Horsham, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham and Bognor Regis. Bognor was reached in 96 minutes and conveyed a buffet car (in my experience normally a BEP rather than a BIG). The front portion from Barnham continued to Portsmouth Harbour (129 minutes) with stops at Chichester, Bosham, Southbourne, Emsworth, Havant, Fratton and Portsmouth & Southsea. This detail is taken from the May 1973 timetable. The hourly service ceased at the timetable change of 1978 when routing via Gatwick became the norm. Based on Moody (Southern Electric 1909-1979) the hourly service was introduced with electrification in July 1938, basically as stated, with the following exceptions: (1) xx18 departure from Victoria; (2) non-stop between Chichester & Havant; (3) omitted Fratton; (4) 0918, 1218 & 1518 ex. Vic. ran via Redhill & Three Bridges. I think the Fratton stops had been introduced by 1960 but the change to xx02 and hourly via Sutton may have had to await the 1967 changes (can anyone comment?).

Peaks were somewhat different and all sorts of Summer extras appeared. For example a second class only at 1012 from London Bridge calling at all stations to Sutton via Tulse Hill, Norbury and West Croydon; then fast to Epsom, Dorking, Littlehampton and Bognor (arr. 1249). This ran Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Thursdays only from 12th July to 25th August and appears in the 1960 timetable (and probably other years too).

The notion of a service from Waterloo to Pulborough & the Coast surprises me. Perhaps the post is only meant to imply Waterloo - Epsom - Guildford - Portsmouth or can more detail be given? I'd be fascinated to know of such a service.

 

[30907]

the hourly service was introduced with electrification in July 1938, basically as stated, with the following exceptions: (1) xx18 departure from Victoria; (2) non-stop between Chichester & Havant; (3) omitted Fratton; (4) 0918, 1218 & 1518 ex. Vic. ran via Redhill & Three Bridges.

the change to xx02 and hourly via Sutton may have had to await the 1967 changes (can anyone comment?).

The notion of a service from Waterloo to Pulborough & the Coast surprises me.

1. The hourly Mid Sussex fast was thinned out in the early postwar years, affecting the Dorking route rather than Redhill.

2. Routing all fasts via Sutton came in 1967 as by then the Three Bridges to Littlehampton stoppers were starting back from Vic as part of the Gatwick Rail Air Link.

3. I suspect the reference to Waterloo is an error for Victoria.

 

[Deepgreen]

Well... some Waterloo to Portsmouth services used to run via Epsom up until the mid 1980s; not sure of the stopping pattern though.

It would probably be a bit difficult to path anything extra through from either terminus these days given that Epsom has 5 trains an hour off peak from Victoria* and 4 an hour from Waterloo and of these 9, 6 an hour continue below Epsom.



*Assuming Southern run everything they're supposed to...

Was this in regular service? I don't recall this happening except during disruption (see photo). I lived in Ashtead, then Epsom from 1980 to 1994.

 

[Deepgreen]

1. The hourly Mid Sussex fast was thinned out in the early postwar years, affecting the Dorking route rather than Redhill.

2. Routing all fasts via Sutton came in 1967 as by then the Three Bridges to Littlehampton stoppers were starting back from Vic as part of the Gatwick Rail Air Link.

3. I suspect the reference to Waterloo is an error for Victoria.

There was a service/timetable 'suggestion' in the early 2000s for a Waterloo to Bognor (or similar coastal destination) service, which never progressed beyond the 'it's probably possible' stage, as far as I know. All sorts of pathing and demand issues, but the concept was discussed at least. Routeing would have been via Wimbledon, Epsom, Dorking, etc., and I think it was considered as an extension to the then regular Epsom line semi-fasts.

I think it's probably true to say that the Dorking - Horsham route is a latent boon opportunity for planned diversions (subject to signalling upgrades) if/when the BML needs major work (Ouse Viaduct, etc.). It was used over the New Year for Gatwick diversions when Stoats Nest, etc., were being renewed.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Was this in regular service? I don't recall this happening except during disruption (see photo). I lived in Ashtead, then Epsom from 1980 to 1994.

There was one an hour certainly up to around that time; I do have a ( very poor quality ) picture of VEP 7737 rushing non-stop through Stoneleigh off peak midday-ish sort of time in good weather conditions. No date other than "spring 1979" but certainly May, likely to be during the May half term. At arounmd the same time I have a similarly poor quality photo of CIG 7417 at Ewell West, and another - probably on the same day - of CIG 7386.

These really are poor quality pictures; taken on a 110 format camera with no experience and all a bit blurry...

 

[yorksrob]

According to Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith's (of the Middleton Press) book on the Epsom - Horsham route (of the Southern Mainlines series), all coastal services were diverted via Gatwick Airport in 1979 except a couple in the morning and evening peaks. Apparently these ceased in 1984.

Funnily enough, I ended up keeping an eye on the Middleton Press bookstall on the Sussex Slammer railtour when it covered the route in 2005 when the proprietor had to go to the loo.

 

[30907]

There was one an hour certainly up to around that time; I do have a ( very poor quality ) picture of VEP 7737 rushing non-stop through Stoneleigh off peak midday-ish sort of time in good weather conditions. No date other than "spring 1979" but certainly May, likely to be during the May half term. At arounmd the same time I have a similarly poor quality photo of CIG 7417 at Ewell West, and another - probably on the same day - of CIG 7386.

Can you make out the headcode? And were the trains 4 cars only?

I was a telephone enquiry clerk at Waterloo that year and I don't recall such a regular service. However, Victoria Central was resignalled around then, so I wonder if this was connected?
(Didn't they put in a double crossover from the Brighton fasts to the SW slows, which was hardly ever used?)

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The one at Stoneleigh - sorry; it's a side on picture from the stairs of the flats opposite.

Of the two at Ewell West, one is 15 and the other is 16.

Just had the thought - would these have been the Waterloo - Horsham service? Although I thought that was all shacks and wouldn't have run fast through Stoneleigh / Ewell West?

 

[yorksrob]

Can you make out the headcode? And were the trains 4 cars only?

I was a telephone enquiry clerk at Waterloo that year and I don't recall such a regular service. However, Victoria Central was resignalled around then, so I wonder if this was connected?
(Didn't they put in a double crossover from the Brighton fasts to the SW slows, which was hardly ever used?)

Picture of a CIG at Ashtead on its way to Bognor with headcode 46 in the said book.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Picture of a CIG at Ashtead on its way to Bognor with headcode 46 in the said book.

But is that from Waterloo or from Victoria? Ashtead is below Epsom where the routes merge.

 

[yorksrob]

But is that from Waterloo or from Victoria? Ashtead is below Epsom where the routes merge.

According to the book, it's the 16:50 Victoria - Bognor.

I don't think the route ever got Waterloo expresses as a matter of course.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Wasn't it the original way to get to Portsmouth though?

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn't it the original way to get to Portsmouth though?

You have to remember that the London, Brighton & South Coast Railway from Victoria was always competing with the London & South Western Railway from Waterloo for the Portsmouth traffic.

I believe that the LB&SCR's route from Three Bridges via Crawley came before the Dorking line (that company basically spread out from the Brighton mainline). That said, once it was built, the Dorking route became the main Portsmouth route for that company (and the central division afterwards) until 1979.

The L&SWR's first route to Portsmouth originally ran via their mainline through Winchester and Eastleigh. Today's mainline from Portsmouth via Guildford took over from that route but remained in competition with the LB&SCR's services via Dorking.

 

[Philip C]

That said, once it was built, the Dorking route became the main Portsmouth route for that company (and the central division afterwards) until 1979.

Moody (Fifth Edition) states May 1978 which accords with what remains of my memory. yorksrob also quotes Vic Mitchell & Keith Smith's (of the Middleton Press) book on the Epsom - Horsham route (of the Southern Mainlines series), that all coastal services were diverted via Gatwick Airport in 1979 except a couple in the morning and evening peaks.

Between Moody and Middleton Press I'd always place my money on the former. On page 164 of the April 1978 Railway Magazine there is a photograph of a CIG unit near Dorking with the following caption: "Up express, the 10.02 from Bognor Regis to London Victoria with Southern "4-CIG" e.m.u. No. 7303 leading, crossing the River Mole and about to enter Boxhill Tunnel, Dorking, on December 29. The through Victoria-Bognor service via Sutton and Dorking is being rerouted via Gatwick from May"

Middleton Press are admirable for the copious numbers of volumes they produce. Sadly their captions often disappoint and tell the reader little more than could easily be deduced by close examination of the picture. Where 'facts' are quoted I'd always recommend seeking other sources for confirmation. Relevant to the date of diversion from the Dorking route I quote the following from the Crawley to Littlehampton volume (Middleton Press) published in 1986: "In 1978 most of the express services were diverted to call at Gatwick Airport......" But in the absence of a 1978 timetable in my collection it is Moody that I would cite as my source.

In 1983/4 the remaining down coastal services running via Dorking North were:
Monday-Friday
0952 London Bridge - Bognor (Summer Only);
1650, 1720 & 1750 Victoria - Bognor (also Portsmouth H on 1750)

Saturday
0827 & hourly until 2027 Victoria - Bognor

Sunday
0958 London Bridge - Bognor (Summer Only)

Up workings were:
Mon-Fri
Two morning peak trains to Vic

Sat
Hourly service to Vic

Sun
All year an evening train to LBr

A curiosity of the Saturday service is that the train left Victoria at xx27 called at Clapham Junction, Sutton, Epsom, Leatherhead, Boxhill, Dorking and reached Horsham at x126. Meanwhile a train left Victoria at xx30 called at Clapham Junction, East Croydon, Redhill, Horley, Gatwick Airport (where it dropped carriages for an all stations service to Horsham) and then ran fast to Crawley and Horsham reached at x129 still three minutes behind the Dorking route train. The via Gatwick then left first at x130 running fast to Barnham, then Chichester, Emsworth, Havant, Fratton, Port & Southsea and Portsmouth Harbour (arr. x236). It was followed by the Dorking route train from Horsham at x137 running as a semi-fast to Billingshurst, Pulborough, Arundel, Barnham and Bognor (arr. x217). A similar arrangement applied in the up direction. I have no recollection of how long this curious arrangement lasted.

I hope that this helps clarify a minor point in the history of the Dorking - Horsham Line.

 

[yorksrob]

Middleton Press are admirable for the copious numbers of volumes they produce. Sadly their captions often disappoint and tell the reader little more than could easily be deduced by close examination of the picture. Where 'facts' are quoted I'd always recommend seeking other sources for confirmation. .

Middleton Press are admirable for providing a good sweep of history for a lot of routes with a lot of interesting pictures that many of us wouldn't have had the opportunity to see otherwise. I've never found their captions disappointing, and whilst I'm glad that those with a deeper knowledge are happy to contribute further information, perhaps they might consider a less supercilious tone when discussing an excellent series.

 

[30907]

The one at Stoneleigh - sorry; it's a side on picture from the stairs of the flats opposite.

Of the two at Ewell West, one is 15 and the other is 16.

Just had the thought - would these have been the Waterloo - Horsham service? Although I thought that was all shacks and wouldn't have run fast through Stoneleigh / Ewell West?

Just checked my memory against the SEM site. 15 was Horsham, 16 Effingham Jn. There were (half hourly?) fasts in the peaks on top of the stoppers, and I have a memory of HAP's (or the declassified version) on some Main Local services in 78-80, but not CIGs or VEPs.

(I regularly used trains just after 1720 to get home to avoid the SE - in those days you could get a seat out of Waterloo to Clapham Jn but no chance out of East. I hear things have changed? IIRC it was 1722 fast, 1724 Epsom slow, 1726 Hampton Ct...)

 

[LAX54]

According to the book, it's the 16:50 Victoria - Bognor.

I don't think the route ever got Waterloo expresses as a matter of course.

The Vic to Bognor / Portsmouth via Sutton were headcodes 20 and 40.

 

[yorksrob]

The Vic to Bognor / Portsmouth via Sutton were headcodes 20 and 40.

Maybe it's a stopper. There's a picture of a VEP (I think, as its head on) coming into Ockley also with a 46 headcode.

 

[physics34]

Think there was a Saturday only coastal service via Dorking until the 90s??

 

[ashworth]

Think there was a Saturday only coastal service via Dorking until the 90s??

It does make you wonder whether there would be a market for leisure travel via this route to Bognor or Littlehampton during the summer. Would there be demand from Sutton, Leatherhead, Epsom and Dorking if a few trains each day ran through to the south coast. Fares are certainly very reasonable by this route from these stations to the south coast. I've often used this route when staying in South London to reach the south coast but you do have to remember the time of the last connection at Horsham on the return journey.

Incidentally I can remember using this route occasionally on the through trains from Portsmouth to Victoria when, as a teenager, visiting relatives on the Isle of Wight in the 1970's. I can understand the routing of Portsmouth and Southampton trains via Gatwick Airport and East Croydon, as there must be a market for this, but I do wonder why some Bognor and Littlehampton trains don't still run via Dorking to relieve the congestion on the Brighton main line.