Horrors

[tbtc]

I'm not bothered about whether the EMT platforms are "isolated". I am bothered that they mean the expanding number of services from South Yorkshire and the East Midlands are cramming into too few platforms, with no scope for a "plan B" when anything goes wrong.

 

[Wyvern]

I wonder if it would be possible to extend the deck over Midland Road and get at least one extra road, perhaps two.

 

[EM2]

I wonder if it would be possible to extend the deck over Midland Road and get at least one extra road, perhaps two.

Absolutely no chance. The residents in the flats put up enough of a fight about the plans that resulted in the station as it is now. They certainly wouldn't want an HST idling outside their windows for an hour at a time.

I think EMT, if they had the choice, would want to get rid of HSTs, so they can use more 5-car Meridians and stable two trains in each platform.

 

[starrymarkb]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8752701@N08/4161561400/

Leipzig station is now a shopping centre, shops are on the lower levels with trains on the upper floor

 

[Minstral25]

I think the station has some issues (bad signage being an important one), but firstly the complex is still not finished yet, and being an essentially brand new station there will be certain bits which won't work correctly yet. When the new Kings Cross complex opens next door I think it will be a fantastic transport interchange.

I bet Euston didn't work perfectly the moment it was opened (It still doesn't if you ask me)

Plus, you can't really blame the new station for the walk from the tube tunnels as the tube tunnels haven't moved from where they were built 50/100years ago! - you can't really expect someone to spend literally billions of pounds moving the whole tube station just to save you two minutes walk!

Personally, I do think the East Midlands platforms are a bit isolated and poorly equipped, but at the time the station was rebuilt, there were no plans to electrify the Midland mainline, and it's quite clear that the design was for a modern electric station, hence the midland lines being stuck outside the central arch. Whether that was for the benefit of keeping those in the champagne bar from choking on diesel fumes or not is a matter for debate....

Being a regular user that 2 minute walk to the tube I have timed. I am not a slow walker but it takes me between 7 and 8 minutes to get from the "FCC" platforms to the Victoria Line through the new northern ticket office. And if I catch a bus the walk is even further - yes the bus stop is outside the old Kings Cross Thameslink station and that only took 3 minutes to the Victoria Line.

I do not think they considered the commuter when designing the station - it is a horrible station for tube/train interchange as the Huge Eurostar terminal fills the centre of the station and all your connecting bits are spread all around. It will never be a good interchange unless you have time on your hands as an international traveller

Architecturally the interior of St Pancras is amazing, I don't mind the shops either (although it is hard to find a useful one) and the Loo's are free - only station in Central London I think. Even the new bits seem to fit OK - I didn't expect them to have the grandness of the Victorian station

But the atmosphere is sterile especially in the old train shed, even boring. It does not have that wonder that Paddington, Victoria, Waterloo has with all the travellers milling around plus the noise of the trains arriving and departing.

I used to love going to St Pancras when I was younger, sadly now it is still beautiful but no thrill.

 

[daccer]

It is stunning - albeit not yet finished completely. I dont understand the knocking of the designers for trying to move a station slightly upmarket. It is after all an international station first and foremost and as such the facilities need to reflect this enhanced status. If it was for the MML only it would still be mouldering away in its previous state. For once we have thrown money at a job and got something better than average. The connections are not great but as previously stated you cant move tube lines for convenience and there is an awful lot being crammed into the interchange at STP. Why cant we aspire to something better than the norm - STP has raised the bar in station refurb and you will see all the other major projects upping their game to reach the standard now set. Kings X and New St will be better projects because of what has been done at ST P.

We have a wealth of beautiful and historic stations in the UK - why cant they be attractions in their own right. The Railways can be and should be a cut above buses and domestic flights - our stations should be more than just a place for getting on and off. St P has changed the mindset surrounding railways and stations in the UK and for that it will always be a vital development.

 

[Deerfold]

Being a regular user that 2 minute walk to the tube I have timed. I am not a slow walker but it takes me between 7 and 8 minutes to get from the "FCC" platforms to the Victoria Line through the new northern ticket office. And if I catch a bus the walk is even further - yes the bus stop is outside the old Kings Cross Thameslink station and that only took 3 minutes to the Victoria Line.

It's ruined the walk for commuters from Kings X to the Northern line too (although not quite as bad if they come into platfroms 9+). It can be quicker going Circle/Hammersmith&C to Moorgate and changing.

I do not think they considered the commuter when designing the station - it is a horrible station for tube/train interchange as the Huge Eurostar terminal fills the centre of the station and all your connecting bits are spread all around. It will never be a good interchange unless you have time on your hands as an international traveller

The signage is *awful* if you don't know the place. And none of the shops have opening times on them - I've been told by staff they're not allowed to - so if you find a shop closed and you're there early you've no idea if it's worth hanging around a few minutes.

Architecturally the interior of St Pancras is amazing, I don't mind the shops either (although it is hard to find a useful one) and the Loo's are free - only station in Central London I think. Even the new bits seem to fit OK - I didn't expect them to have the grandness of the Victorian station

True. Some underground stations have free loos - Green Park and Piccadilly circus spring to mind (there's very few, but two at adjacent stations...)

 

[whoshotjimmi]

This seems rather crazy to me, a station is restored back to its intended magnificence and glory, and the users of railuk forums just complain about it?
Surely there are much more deserving stations where moaning and complaint would be more appropriate. Kings Cross has been mentioned but what about Manchester Victoria, the station without a soul? Edinburgh Waverly, the maze of a station with its illogical platform numbering? Birmingham New Street, enough said?

You are completely missing the point. Stations such as Manchester Victoria haven't just had billions of pounds splashes out on renewal. Kings Cross, Waverley and New Street are undergoing such refurbishment, so judgement should be left until after completion of these projects.

I am glad that, finally, a decent debate has been started on St. Pancras. I think most people would agree that the trainshed restoration is absolutely superb.

Sadly, it is tarnished by the apallingly bland new extension (including full exposure to the freezing cold of a British Winter), the lack of signage in (at least) French - a cardinal sin for an INTERNATIONAL station, the fact that the 3 mile walk from the domestic platforms to the underground is, at best, achievable through pure luck (the signs do not direct you towards the underground, rather around the maze of pretentious organic food shops and champagne bars) and the ghastly statue awaiting everyone on arrival.

After the amount of money spent on it, I expected much, much better.

A station should be easy to use. St. Pancras is not.

 

[EM2]

Bear in mind there is a programme of re-signing underway after feedback from customers, but where do signs not direct you to the Underground?

 

[yorksrob]

I definately love what they've done with the trainshed. With regards to the difficulty in getting around the place, I suppose that's inevitable to an extent, bearing in mind it is in effect several seperate stations with seperate entrance points joined together. One thing I do think is a bit of a pity is the fact that the upper concourse seems to be very much sidelined - particularly for anyone not arriving from the EMT platforms. The first thing I would do would be to open up the walkway on the Eastern side of the Barlow trainshed to the public so that South Eastern passengers can get to the front of the station easily. This is totally seperate from the international platforms so shouldn't represent too much of a problem re-modelling wise.

As for the added-on trainshed, it does seem a bit basic. Perhaps when they electrify the Midland mainline they'll be able to do away with the vents in the walls and have a rethink about their construction. this could make them less windy whilst the insertion of some large clear windows could potentially make these areas a bit less dingy.

Shame they couldn't fit in an extra couple of platforms on the EMT side. Thats going to be a problem for years to come.

 

[whoshotjimmi]

Bear in mind there is a programme of re-signing underway after feedback from customers, but where do signs not direct you to the Underground?

The signs from the EMT platforms direct you through the shopping mall towards the front of the station and around the back of the underground entrance. Suddenly, some more signs appear that direct you back inside the station, around the other side of the underground entrance and FINALLY one finds the staircase. Stupidly, you can see the EMT platforms directly in front of where the underground entrance is (albeit 300m further along the platform). There is clearly no need for the diversion on which the signs take you.

But it is not just that. The station is full of signs that say completely contradictory things on each side from one to another. Entirely ridiculous.

When coming out of the underground, it takes a minor miracle to find the South Eastern platfoms.

I have also looked long and hard at the Eurostar signage but am still at a loss as to how to get from the entrance to the arrivals area. God help non English speaking people.

However, I do know how to get to all the bars and shops. Great for my pre journey drink and sandwich, not so for when I want to actually use the station for its intended purpose.

The sad thing is, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest.

 

[Lampshade]

p.s and if you hate whats been done to waterloo, you're going to hate what railtrack has got planned for the future... (underground concourse, platforms extended across the existing concourse...)

Noooo :cry:

Waterloo's my favourite London terminal, they can't do that hock:

When coming out of the underground, it takes a minor miracle to find the South Eastern platfoms.

Seconded, I got off the tube, went into the station, looked around for a bit before concluding they didn't exist. I went back about an hour later and found them out of pure luck.

 

[Wyvern]

Yes but if people can find their trains straight away they are not going to notice the shops or the champagne bar.

 

[EM2]

The signs from the EMT platforms direct you through the shopping mall towards the front of the station and around the back of the underground entrance. Suddenly, some more signs appear that direct you back inside the station, around the other side of the underground entrance and FINALLY one finds the staircase. Stupidly, you can see the EMT platforms directly in front of where the underground entrance is (albeit 300m further along the platform). There is clearly no need for the diversion on which the signs take you.

Rubbish.
When you come off the EMT platforms there is a sign facing you that says 'Way Out, King's Cross, Underground, Toilets, Taxis', pointing straight ahead.
At the top of the escalator, there is a huge free-standing poster board that says 'Downstairs for Underground' and shows which lines leave from KXSP.
Even if you miss that, and carry on along the upper concourse, there are *three* 10' tall touch-screen information points, each of which has a sign on top pointing downstairs to the Underground, with a little picture of an escalator on it. And if you don't see *that*, then each screen has a map showing the whole layout of the station.

But it is not just that. The station is full of signs that say completely contradictory things on each side from one to another. Entirely ridiculous.

Such as?

When coming out of the underground, it takes a minor miracle to find the South Eastern platfoms.

There are two exits from the Underground. One brings you right out almost underneath the South Eastern platforms (and there's a departure board straight in front).
The other has yet another touch-screen information point as soon as you enter the station, and three more further along the concourse *plus* signs for National Rail all along the concourse, which then split into EMT, FCC and SE as you get closer to the relevant areas.

I have also looked long and hard at the Eurostar signage but am still at a loss as to how to get from the entrance to the arrivals area. God help non English speaking people.

I'll check that later.
...

The sad thing is, I'm not exaggerating in the slightest.

Yes, you are. In the extreme.
*Everything* at St. P. has to be approved by English Heritage, including the size, number and wording of every sign in the station. If you want to vent your ire somewhere, maybe you'd be better served venting it in that direction.

 

[Wyvern]

Rubbish.
When you come off the EMT platforms there is a sign facing you that says 'Way Out, King's Cross, Underground, Toilets, Taxis', pointing straight ahead.
At the top of the escalator, there is a huge free-standing poster board that says 'Downstairs for Underground' and shows which lines leave from KXSP.

It's a pity there's not one to direct you through 180 degrees for the Thameslink platforms.

 

[EM2]

It's a pity there's not one to direct you through 180 degrees for the Thameslink platforms.

The same free-standing poster board reads 'Downstairs then turn back for First Capital Connect and Southeastern'

whoshotjimmi - As for Eurostar arrivals, when you walk in through the Eurostar entrance there is a sign (for Eurostar Arrivals Arrivées) straight in front pointing straight ahead, there is another 20 yards after that, then there is *another* pointing left, then when you follow that, there is a fourth, pointing directly at the Arrivals door and an Arrivals board above the door stating 'International Arrivals'.
How can you not see that?

 

[Wyvern]

The same free-standing poster board reads 'Downstairs then turn back for First Capital Connect and Southeastern'

Oh good. Thanks for that. They must have done it since I was last there. I had e-mailed them a couple of times.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Oh good. Thanks for that. They must have done it since I was last there. I had e-mailed them a couple of times.

So whereabouts is the entrance to the Southeastern platforms, which side of the station and how do you get there from the tube? Need to go in a few weeks but haven't yet been through St P since the Southeatern services started. Is is well signed??

 

[EM2]

So whereabouts is the entrance to the Southeastern platforms, which side of the station and how do you get there from the tube? Need to go in a few weeks but haven't yet been through St P since the Southeatern services started. Is is well signed??

It's on Pancras Road, opposite The Gymnasium.
Which tube line are you coming in on? If it's the Northern or the Piccadilly, you should come out right in front of the SouthEastern escalators.
If it's the Circle, Met or H&C, go straight along the concourse, turn right at the end (in front of FCC), and follow the signs from there to take the escalator behind Starbucks.
If it's the Vic, you could come out either end

 

[yorksrob]

As for the added-on trainshed, it does seem a bit basic. Perhaps when they electrify the Midland mainline they'll be able to do away with the vents in the walls and have a rethink about their construction. this could make them less windy whilst the insertion of some large clear windows could potentially make these areas a bit less dingy.

Having just been through the place again I've noticed that the walls already are largely glass anyway, so perhaps once the diesels are gone, it might be worth glazing some parts of the roof to lift the gloom.

 

[shinkansen1966]

As a regular user, I do like St Pancras. It's been beautiful restored, spacious and with plenty of appealing shops. Mind you, I do share the concerns of those on the message thread.

The station is spread out. It's four stations in one: FCC, EMT, SE trains & Eurostar each with their own entrances, set up and service patterns. I know my way around St P very well and never need to follow the signs. But recently, wanted to meet someone there so we could catch an EM train. He'd not been to St P for years and it did occur to me: where you do agree to meet if one of your party has never been to St Pancras ?

The network of tube passageways can be mind boggling for the unitiated. But KXSP tube set up is two stations with six different railways companies, plus a further six tube lines. It's gonna be a busy mess no matter what you do. But overall, the addition of the Northern ticket hall added some welcome capacity and in certain instances shortens the walk. More could be done to improve signage upto the South East high speed platforms.

Work is being done on the adjacent KX stn. Apart from a thorough restoration, we will see the main entrance and booking hall align with the Pancras Rd side entrance of St P. The stations really will face each other with the Northern Hall tube ticket hall acting as focus. And in less than 3 years time, that hideous temporary green frontage to Kings Cross will be gone !

 

[LE Greys]

Having seen what happened to St Pancras, and having seen a documentary about what is going to happen to King's Cross, I'm getting worried. In the old trainshed at StP, how much would it have cost to disguise the modern balcony rails with Derby-style wrought iron footbridge sides, to make the newer sections look older? As for the new bit, why not simply paint the columns in standard Midland Railway patterns (ornate columns and the coat of arms are probably a bit too much to hope for)? This would lessen the clash between the two.

When applying the same things to KX, I would abandon most of the new footbridge design and bolt the sides from the old bridge onto the new one. The lifts would be disguised as much as possible and, crucially, the clock would go back to where it belongs. On the outside, I agree about opening up the area and pulling down the extension, but why replace it with another monstrosity? Why not make it look as though the new concourse was built in 1850? Even better would be to abandon Pancras Road and link the two stations up completely, perhaps with a travolator link underground to Euston, or Gatwick-style shuttle. After all, Euston might get even bigger shortly.

Basically, let's make station improvements look as though they were there from the moment the station opened.

 

[daccer]

I dont actually agree with trying to make modern improvements look like the dated originals. Firstly it is very difficult and you can end up with the mock tudor pub experience where plastic replicas adorn walls etc. There is no reason why buildings cannot adapt as they get older and why must the 1850's be the only era of decent station building. The key thing is to try and compliment the old strucure rather than subjugate it.

The same argument was used when the Louvre has the new pyramid entrance built but now it is an accepted feature of the museum. If we try and recrete the past we tend to end up with a naff pastiche of what we think they would have built back then. Better we bring world class architecture to play and build something that is both practical and appealing. Its amazing how many buildings only gain true favour long after they have been built and can slip into our sub conscious.

The key criteria nowdays is always customer service first and foremost. The days of building cathedrals so that the private companies can show off (mine is bigger than yours) are long gone. What we need to ensure is that we we treasure and restore what is already there and replace that which was built in haste and on the cheap (basically anything from the 60's and 70's when it comes to railways. So when the last brutalist station is redone and we can wave goodbye to concrete dungeons then we would have put the past to bed properly and we will finally have a network that constitutes the best of the past allied to the needs of the modern world.

 

[LE Greys]

I dont actually agree with trying to make modern improvements look like the dated originals. Firstly it is very difficult and you can end up with the mock tudor pub experience where plastic replicas adorn walls etc. There is no reason why buildings cannot adapt as they get older and why must the 1850's be the only era of decent station building. The key thing is to try and compliment the old strucure rather than subjugate it.

The same argument was used when the Louvre has the new pyramid entrance built but now it is an accepted feature of the museum. If we try and recrete the past we tend to end up with a naff pastiche of what we think they would have built back then. Better we bring world class architecture to play and build something that is both practical and appealing. Its amazing how many buildings only gain true favour long after they have been built and can slip into our sub conscious.

The key criteria nowdays is always customer service first and foremost. The days of building cathedrals so that the private companies can show off (mine is bigger than yours) are long gone. What we need to ensure is that we we treasure and restore what is already there and replace that which was built in haste and on the cheap (basically anything from the 60's and 70's when it comes to railways. So when the last brutalist station is redone and we can wave goodbye to concrete dungeons then we would have put the past to bed properly and we will finally have a network that constitutes the best of the past allied to the needs of the modern world.

OK, you clearly have a point. I had another look at St P yestreday, and suddenly realized just why my idea was impossible. To be a true replica (like what the GWR did in the 1930s when they extended Paddington) we would have to abandon any building materials and techniques from about 1950 onwards. This would double the cost, and would probably look wrong anyway.

Whoops!

However, would it really have made all that much difference to paint the main girders in the new trainshed in the same pastel blue as in the roof trusses in the old one? I think it would have looked better than the grubby white we have at the moment, but that's just a matter of opinion. It seems to be a modern fashion to paint everything white. With buildings, they soon go yellowish, then brown, then grey. With trains (Southeastern, NXEC and various other liveries) they always look like a ripoff of Eurostar - and also tend to change colour to mucky ochre.

Bolting on some wrought-ironwork to the new balcony sides would be purely decorative at St Pancras, but at King's Cross, it would preserve the clock. There will be a new, white-painted, glass-sided steel footbridge slicing right accross the trainshed. The remains of the old bridge still exist somewhere, so what's wrong with recycling them as part of the new one? It would have to be wider, and probably use glass panels inside the ironwork to stop people reaching through, but it would retain the appearance of the old bridge. Any lifts added to the side would be designed in keeping with the original design. The one they plan to build is almost as ugly as the current concourse, and looks like they nicked it from the Heathrow Glasshouse (or T5).

 

[daccer]

I do actually agree that the modern trend of lifts and new staircases can ruin a decent looking station. My local place is Kettering and a few years ago it had a ruddy great big footbridge with attached lifts stuck on one end of what was a very pleasant Victorian station in good nick. It is a blight but customer satisfaction does come first I suppose. the wrought iron footbridge at Kings X could have been kept I am sure.

My other bug bear is canopies. How many perfectly decent Victorian station buildings have been ruined by sticking on a plastic canopy rather than a glass one. I am sure it is more expensive to replicate/repair glass and iron canopies but surely it it worth it. I actually prefer the modern canopy design as seen at Rugby or Derby to the tacky plastic offerings of the seventies and eighties. Also heritage railways seem to manage to renew and repair their canopies ok.


Aesthetics do matter whatever the accountants would have us believe. There is no reason why world class design cant take into account the beauty of a building as well as its practicality. Not all stations can be St Pancras but if we are to build lets do it with at least an acknowledgment that the Victorians left us a great railway heritage and there is more to life than just practicality and pounds and pence.