Was sitting in 1st as usual, all 10 seats where taken. I was sitting opposite a gentleman wearing a suit with a Southern name badge. An RPI comes in and guess what, 8 out of 10 people dont have tickets. When they all got kicked out I had a polite conversation with the Southern manager explaining that this happens all the time. Hopefully something will be done about it now.
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Hopefully an improvement to reduce fare dodging
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I've witnessed this on a couple of occasions on London Midland, and all that happened was that the offenders were asked to move to standard class even though the train was nearing the end of its journey. On one occasion, one passenger even argued that it was hardly worth moving because the train would be arriving in London in 20 minutes!
I, and many others spend their time kicking folks out of first class, but sometimes its not possible to check every train, all the time.
eg. We work a 12 car that runs from Vic to horsham, where it splits. In the rush hour its not always possible to get through it all, plus you have to be in the middle at Crawley for sighting, and then front 4 for Littlehaven. So the last time I worked it, only manged to check first class in 4,5,8,9 and 12. So if you were in coach 1 for eg, and though there was not someone who was first class (and you can NEVER tell just by looking), you would be hrumphing and thinking, typical, staff never checks first class.
Just an example.
And then there are many DOO services.
And in a aside to your, been there all the time, I had a pass on my train who was PF'd for sitting in first class, 30 secs after we had left Victoria.
eg. We work a 12 car that runs from Vic to horsham, where it splits. In the rush hour its not always possible to get through it all, plus you have to be in the middle at Crawley for sighting, and then front 4 for Littlehaven. So the last time I worked it, only manged to check first class in 4,5,8,9 and 12. So if you were in coach 1 for eg, and though there was not someone who was first class (and you can NEVER tell just by looking), you would be hrumphing and thinking, typical, staff never checks first class.
Just an example.
And then there are many DOO services.
And in a aside to your, been there all the time, I had a pass on my train who was PF'd for sitting in first class, 30 secs after we had left Victoria.
steamybrian
Established Member
You can never tell by looking at a person whether they have a have a first class ticket or not.
As a former BR (retired) manager who obtained first class travel it surprises Ticket inspectors when I show them a first class pass when dressed in jeans /tee shirt and muddy wellies.
Many years ago when I used to do caving and potholing in Derbyshire/Yorkshire and afterwards I have travelled back to London dressed in muddy/damp grubby clothes and it is amazing the looks I got from revenue inspectors when showing a first class pass. I nearly always got a compartment to myself as well-- can't think why......!
Yes I regularly travel on the London-Brighton line for example l was on the 1632 Victoria-Horsham/Tonbridge yesterday !
As a former BR (retired) manager who obtained first class travel it surprises Ticket inspectors when I show them a first class pass when dressed in jeans /tee shirt and muddy wellies.
Many years ago when I used to do caving and potholing in Derbyshire/Yorkshire and afterwards I have travelled back to London dressed in muddy/damp grubby clothes and it is amazing the looks I got from revenue inspectors when showing a first class pass. I nearly always got a compartment to myself as well-- can't think why......!
Yes I regularly travel on the London-Brighton line for example l was on the 1632 Victoria-Horsham/Tonbridge yesterday !
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Perhaps the looks were because the inspector may have been considering the following:
National Railway Byelaw 5. (2005)
Unfit to be on the railway
No person shall enter or remain on the railway if, in the reasonable opinion of an authorised person, he is in an unfit or improper condition or his clothing may soil or damage any part of the railway or the property or clothing of any person on the railway.
Several factors contribute towards the problem of passengers with standard class tickets (or no ticket at all) occupying first class accommodation - including operating practice, train overcrowding, the number of duties the guard has to perform during a journey and the general lack of respect for rules and regulations in British society - and I agree that you can never tell from someone's appearance whether they hold a first class ticket and should never judge someone in that way.
But the OP's point is that passengers caught in first class are, too often, simply asked to move and therefore have little incentive not to try it on in the first place.
SETCommuter
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One would assume that the Southern Manager was entitled to sit in first class ?
I use Greater Anglia 1st class and I have not noticed a great amount of interloping as I call it. What there is has increased a little bit recently due to the time of year and rolling stock shortages. I have found if you choose the correct compartment in an eight or 12 car train, you can avoid most of the interlopers. They cannot walk very far from the entrance to the platform.
In a 321 compartment with 16 seats. A loading on a non disrupted day is typically 4-7. The most being 10.
I do not challenge people as they are almost certainly someone I have never seen before and I will never see again. One of the other 1st class passengers, a railway senior manger who gets on at another stop. Did make a loud statement to other passengers from his stop, that he called out the BTP flying squad to deal with one or two interlopers.
In a 321 compartment with 16 seats. A loading on a non disrupted day is typically 4-7. The most being 10.
I do not challenge people as they are almost certainly someone I have never seen before and I will never see again. One of the other 1st class passengers, a railway senior manger who gets on at another stop. Did make a loud statement to other passengers from his stop, that he called out the BTP flying squad to deal with one or two interlopers.
revenueadvice
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I will penalty fare people sitting in first class with only a standard ticket. I do get a lot of "1st class" passengers thanking me for taking action as they are fed up with struggling to get a seat in first class because of STD ticket holders sitting in the seats. The problem is biggest at peak times. To be honest there isn't enough RPI's to cover all the peak time trains and to target first class is difficult. The trains are rammed full and there is always the "well where do you expect me to sit" types who just want to argue.
I can see it from both points of view. The train is heaving so you go and sit in first class because you do not want to be pressed up against other commuters but the TOC that I work for has a policy of "If the passenger is standing in 1st class then do not penalty fare them, if they are taking up a seat then we should penalty fare them." Which makes life easier in some ways as there is extra standing capacity but harder in other ways as when you go into 1st class to do a ticket check people with STD tickets will obviously stand up. So I have the policy of if I saw you sitting down then its a penalty. If you want to argue you can talk to the prosecutions department. Its amazing how quickly the credit card comes out to pay the penalty fare when I start to caution them
I can see it from both points of view. The train is heaving so you go and sit in first class because you do not want to be pressed up against other commuters but the TOC that I work for has a policy of "If the passenger is standing in 1st class then do not penalty fare them, if they are taking up a seat then we should penalty fare them." Which makes life easier in some ways as there is extra standing capacity but harder in other ways as when you go into 1st class to do a ticket check people with STD tickets will obviously stand up. So I have the policy of if I saw you sitting down then its a penalty. If you want to argue you can talk to the prosecutions department. Its amazing how quickly the credit card comes out to pay the penalty fare when I start to caution them
bengolding
Member
I travel Kings Cross to Cambridge often, always in First, and have noticed that RPI checks are more prevalent. Just today, 2 Standard customers were given a PF for sitting in my compartment despite seats being available in Standard. Given I pay a hefty premium for a no-frills FCC First journey (unless I change at Stevenage with East Coast) I do get fed up at the overspill in First, and thanked the RPI when it was clear the passengers had intentionally sat there.
RJ
Established Member
Never make assumptions - I was in full uniform recently on an EMT service. The trolley dolly steamed straight past me and the Train Manager was going on like I needed to ask her permission before I sat there. I pulled out a Canterbury to Sheffield FOS, which apparently, they were not expecting.
A lot of the time, TOCs fail to understand how other paying passengers get upset about these things. There's an argument about it not being our business and to let staff do their job, which is fine if we then see them doing their job.
I know that a lone RPI will be told not to get involved with a group of people that could kick off, and even to judge individuals in the same way. But, there are also the times when you see people quite happily giving people the chance to move out of first class, almost as if they're saying 'hehe, sorry guys, you're unlucky this time!' and really not wanting to get involved.
I've also seen RPIs blitz first class and take no prisoners, but there's often such inconsistency. Sometimes I wonder if some RPIs aren't as motivated and are happy to pretend they didn't encounter anyone in first class without a ticket (who would know?) to just move on.
Some RPIs are very motivated and compete with colleagues to dish out the most PFs, others must just sit back and hardly issue any.
I know that a lone RPI will be told not to get involved with a group of people that could kick off, and even to judge individuals in the same way. But, there are also the times when you see people quite happily giving people the chance to move out of first class, almost as if they're saying 'hehe, sorry guys, you're unlucky this time!' and really not wanting to get involved.
I've also seen RPIs blitz first class and take no prisoners, but there's often such inconsistency. Sometimes I wonder if some RPIs aren't as motivated and are happy to pretend they didn't encounter anyone in first class without a ticket (who would know?) to just move on.
Some RPIs are very motivated and compete with colleagues to dish out the most PFs, others must just sit back and hardly issue any.
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