Hope! WM RAILWAY

[ahhj]

Hi

Not sure if this is the right platform, but I’m Just posting this for any people that may be anxious about receiving a letter after being court, and to let it be known that there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.

I won’t specify where, but I got a train from X (South Birmingham Station) to new street 3 months ago. Stupidly, I thought I’d save myself a few extra quid and buy the closest ticket to new street station. However when I scanned my ticket at new street station, it flagged up on the train inspectors scanner that it hadn’t scanned at the station I was meant to come from. Therefore, they knew that I’d paid the shortest journey and ‘evaded’ the train fare.

After countless amount of days up until today, I’d feel anxious everyday, worrying about getting a letter with them ordering a straight court order, rather than an out-of-court settlement fee(settlement fee). Incase you didn’t know, when prosecuted in court, can lead to a criminal record conviction. After spiralling on this forum page, seeing how many people getting court orders with no other choice, it built my anxiety up, until today…

I got home after a long day of work, and had received a letter offering a settlement fee. Despite it being around the £200 mark, it only left a smile on my face, knowing that my job and future wouldn’t be jeopardised. In hindsight, of course I should’ve just paid the full amount, but my complacency got in the way.

This is just a post for anyone who is stewing on the thought of potentially receiving just a court order, hopefully this post settles your nerves slightly. Any questions, ask, but I won’t give you specific details lol.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for sharing your story with us. Most train companies threaten prosecution but are almost always prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who engage with them, and who haven't come to their attention before which is what we generally advise people seeking our assistance to do.

Transport for London is an exception. They don't offer out of court settlements but do occasionally give a final warning instead of prosecution, depending on the circumstances.

 

[dannypye9999]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?. Lots of reasons why someone didn't pass through the barriers at the originating stop,. Maybe they passed through the disabled gate and it was checked manually without a scan, or the gates were already open..How do they determine a person came from further afield? Just because their ticket wasn't scanned at the gates doesn't mean that person was avoiding paying the full fare although in your case you were

 

[AlterEgo]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?.

Revenue block at that station scanning and any and all entries.

 

[reb0118]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?.

That is enough to instigated a challenge from the inspector or equivalent. The passenger, at that time, is not being accused of fare dodging but to account for the lack of a scan. Depending on how the passenger then responds further action may be deemed appropriate.

 

[STKKK46]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?. Lots of reasons why someone didn't pass through the barriers at the originating stop,. Maybe they passed through the disabled gate and it was checked manually without a scan, or the gates were already open..How do they determine a person came from further afield? Just because their ticket wasn't scanned at the gates doesn't mean that person was avoiding paying the full fare although in your case you were

Very likely it was a joint block with Five Ways. Every ticket will be scanned at Five Ways, there’s only one entrance.

Then the gates/scanners at New Street set to flag any tickets that were purchased from there with no entry scan.

Relatively regular exercise.

 

[ahhj]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?. Lots of reasons why someone didn't pass through the barriers at the originating stop,. Maybe they passed through the disabled gate and it was checked manually without a scan, or the gates were already open..How do they determine a person came from further afield? Just because their ticket wasn't scanned at the gates doesn't mean that person was avoiding paying the full fare although in your case you were

I’m not sure. I bluffed at first and said I came from there, and he called it, so either they have really good technology or he called me bluff.

Either way it worked. WM railway are way more lenient than Manchester and London from what I’ve heard, I’m just extremely lucky to not deal with legal proceedings, can’t complain.

What they’ve done has worked as I definitely won’t be trying that again lol, cba for the stress over a student trying to save a few quid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

Very likely it was a joint block with Five Ways. Every ticket will be scanned at Five Ways, there’s only one entrance.

Then the gates/scanners at New Street set to flag any tickets that were purchased from there with no entry scan.

Relatively regular exercise.

Si senor

 

[Haywain]

How can they accuse anyone of fare dodging based on a ticket not scanning at the gates anyway?. Lots of reasons why someone didn't pass through the barriers at the originating stop,. Maybe they passed through the disabled gate and it was checked manually without a scan, or the gates were already open..How do they determine a person came from further afield? Just because their ticket wasn't scanned at the gates doesn't mean that person was avoiding paying the full fare although in your case you were

If that were the case the person challenged would be able to explain, wouldn't they?

 

[ahhj]

That is enough to instigated a challenge from the inspector or equivalent. The passenger, at that time, is not being accused of fare dodging but to account for the lack of a scan. Depending on how the passenger then responds further action may be deemed appropriate.

Honestly, maybe I could’ve argued it, but at the same time, when they asked me questions, I told them that the reason why I bought the ticket was because it was cheaper alternative, so would’ve been hard to convince them that I didn’t have intention after that.

 

[Cuthbert]

I’m not sure. I bluffed at first and said I came from there, and he called it, so either they have really good technology or he called me bluff.

Either way it worked. WM railway are way more lenient than Manchester and London from what I’ve heard, I’m just extremely lucky to not deal with legal proceedings, can’t complain.

What they’ve done has worked as I definitely won’t be trying that again lol, cba for the stress over a student trying to save a few quid.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==


Si senor

If the WM revenue team are doing a block at Birmingham New Street they will call colleagues at Five Ways to make sure the gates are shut and everyone is asked for a pass and scanned.

Five Ways belongs to WM.

 

[ahhj]

Thanks for sharing your story with us. Most train companies threaten prosecution but are almost always prepared to offer an out of court settlement to people who engage with them, and who haven't come to their attention before which is what we generally advise people seeking our assistance to do.

Transport for London is an exception. They don't offer out of court settlements but do occasionally give a final warning instead of prosecution, depending on the circumstances.

I get why, but I do think that is a bit strict. The reason being is because some people genuinely do make mistakes, but I feel like some transport companies don’t really take that into account.

Feels a bit harsh to give a person who maybe purchased the wrong ticket a criminal record, ruining their lives for a few years.

Just my thoughts anyway, I’ve always seen train evasion as a parking fine or speeding offence - never to the extent of criminal record. However, I guess these are just private companies, and technically you’re “robbing” their services. I understand it from their end. Is what it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

If the WM revenue team are doing a block at Birmingham New Street they will call colleagues at Five Ways to make sure the gates are shut and everyone is asked for a pass and scanned.

Five Ways belongs to WM.

Yeah the day it landed on, there was a bunch of inspectors at the barriers when I got to new street - is what it is.
This was merely a post to hope to settle the nerves for anyone who was anxious about their letter, maybe having thoughts of their life being over due to a criminal record. Any over thinkers out there. This is all what this posts purpose was for.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

If that were the case the person challenged would be able to explain, wouldn't they?

The purpose of this post wasn’t to give specifics, but I have given a bit more of the story out in the thread.

this post Was just to settle people’s nerves a bit, nothing more.

 

[Hadders]

I get why, but I do think that is a bit strict.

Fare evasion is rife on the railways. Many people would argue that train companies are not strict enough.

The reason being is because some people genuinely do make mistakes, but I feel like some transport companies don’t really take that into account.

People do make mistakes and many people are shown discresion on a daily basis. When that happens they tend not to post about it on social media on on this forum. We generally only get to hear about cases where for whatever discresion isn't shown.

Feels a bit harsh to give a person who maybe purchased the wrong ticket a criminal record, ruining their lives for a few years.

Rail fare avasion and what should happen is a hot topic at the moment. Some train companies have failed to follow the correct rules incorrectly criminalising 75,000 people which has been news in the media recently. What should the consequences be for breaking the law?

Just my thoughts anyway, I’ve always seen train evasion as a parking fine or speeding offence - never to the extent of criminal record

Rail fare evasion is a criminal matter. Some argue that it shouldn't be a criminal matter but it should never be ok for people to think they can get away without paying the fare for their journey. My view is there should be a consequence for people who deliberately evade their fare.

 

[ahhj]

Fare evasion is rife on the railways. Many people would argue that train companies are not strict enough.


People do make mistakes and many people are shown discresion on a daily basis. When that happens they tend not to post about it on social media on on this forum. We generally only get to hear about cases where for whatever discresion isn't shown.


Rail fare avasion and what should happen is a hot topic at the moment. Some train companies have failed to follow the correct rules incorrectly criminalising 75,000 people which has been news in the media recently. What should the consequences be for breaking the law?


Rail fare evasion is a criminal matter. Some argue that it shouldn't be a criminal matter but it should never be ok for people to think they can get away without paying the fare for their journey. My view is there should be a consequence for people who deliberately evade their fare.

No I agree completely now, I’m still fairly young so it never even crossed my mind, definitely made me more aware of the fact so they’ve done a good job. I can’t argue with anything you said there to be honest - it is good that it’s being dealt with this way and been made more aware. Spot on.

 

[WesternLancer]

Just my thoughts anyway, I’ve always seen train evasion as a parking fine or speeding offence - never to the extent of criminal record. However, I guess these are just private companies, and technically you’re “robbing” their services. I understand it from their end. Is what it is.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Nov 2024 ==

Just a tangential observation on your point here - but it's actually the government that pays for the railway service (it's massively subsidised) - so fare evasion is "robbing" the government - or at least other taxpayers, and the govt takes things like tax evasion or benefit fraud pretty toughly too - the attitude in parts of government will be along those lines.

Anecdotally it seems that the government has been telling the railway operators recently (who are contractors to the government basically) to get tougher on fare evasion, and I would expect this to get even more the case as more train companies are re-nationalised under government plans.

Of course you have stated that you understand the 'bigger picture' so not trying to say you are wrong.

 

[Haywain]

Just my thoughts anyway, I’ve always seen train evasion as a parking fine or speeding offence - never to the extent of criminal record.

A speeding offence is a criminal matter, that's why it will go before the magistrates if you decline to pay a fixed penalty or accept a speed awareness course. However, Unlike most other crimes it has been normalised to the extent that people don't actually realise that it's a criminal matter.

 

[ahhj]

Fare evasion is rife on the railways. Many people would argue that train companies are not strict enough.


People do make mistakes and many people are shown discresion on a daily basis. When that happens they tend not to post about it on social media on on this forum. We generally only get to hear about cases where for whatever discresion isn't shown.


Rail fare avasion and what should happen is a hot topic at the moment. Some train companies have failed to follow the correct rules incorrectly criminalising 75,000 people which has been news in the media recently. What should the consequences be for breaking the law?


Rail fare evasion is a criminal matter. Some argue that it shouldn't be a criminal matter but it should never be ok for people to think they can get away without paying the fare for their journey. My view is there should be a consequence for people who deliberately evade their fare.

A speeding offence is a criminal matter, that's why it will go before the magistrates if you decline to pay a fixed penalty or accept a speed awareness course. However, Unlike most other crimes it has been normalised to the extent that people don't actually realise that it's a criminal matter.

Yeah makes sense to be fair

 

[dannypye9999]

Revenue block at that station scanning and any and all entries.

Just how tricky would it be if person A had a valid paper ticket for a Longbridge to Five Ways journey, but just 5 mins after departing Longbridge he decides to continue his journey to Birmingham so he purchases on the app a Five Ways to Birmingham New Street advance for the train he is currently on. He doesn't need to leave the train at Five Ways meaning he won't get his ticket scanned there and once past Five Ways he bins his paper ticket as he no longer needs this. Upon arriving at New Street, the barriers go off and he is met by BTP and revenue staff telling him his ticket wasn't scanned at Five Ways as it was blocked. He tells them he came from Longbridge and had a ticket for that journey, but they demand to produce it or he faces a letter. How does he get out of this?

 

[Haywain]

he is met by BTP and revenue staff telling him his ticket wasn't scanned at Five Ways as it was blocked. He tells them he came from Longbridge and had a ticket for that journey, but they demand to produce it or he faces a letter. How does he get out of this?

Wouldn't he just produce the ticket from Longbridge to Five Ways?

 

[dannypye9999]

Wouldn't he just produce the ticket from Longbridge to Five Ways?

But he binned it as it was a paper ticket and after Five Ways he realised he no longer needs it.

 

[AlterEgo]

But he binned it as it was a paper ticket and after Five Ways he realised he no longer needs it.

What if the railway lines around New Street currently defied the space time continuum and rearranged themselves so they all instead orbited a small dustbin, inside which was a replica of the Rosetta Stone?

I think you’re trying too hard to think of an extremely niche scenario which never happens.

 

[John R]

But he binned it as it was a paper ticket and after Five Ways he realised he no longer needs it.

I expect they paid cash too, so no evidence of a card transaction at Longbridge? Thought so…

I suspect that in the vast majority of the cases where this was put forward as a reason, a quick perusal of the travellers online account would show a remarkable propensity of them to change their mind after boarding as to their destination and buy that additional ticket coincidentally from the last station before their actual, barriered, destination.

And the number of genuine cases would be vanishingly small.

 

[Trainman40083]

I only ever dispose of paper tickets after I get home.

 

[island]

But he binned it as it was a paper ticket and after Five Ways he realised he no longer needs it.

Does the passenger also have assorted disabilities, only pay in cash, suffer from anxiety triggered by being asked for a ticket?

 

[Cantab26]

Just how tricky would it be if person A had a valid paper ticket for a Longbridge to Five Ways journey, but just 5 mins after departing Longbridge he decides to continue his journey to Birmingham so he purchases on the app a Five Ways to Birmingham New Street advance for the train he is currently on. He doesn't need to leave the train at Five Ways meaning he won't get his ticket scanned there and once past Five Ways he bins his paper ticket as he no longer needs this. Upon arriving at New Street, the barriers go off and he is met by BTP and revenue staff telling him his ticket wasn't scanned at Five Ways as it was blocked. He tells them he came from Longbridge and had a ticket for that journey, but they demand to produce it or he faces a letter. How does he get out of this?

There are no Advance fares between Five Ways and Birmingham New Street so I would invite him to stop playing silly beggars and to start co-operating before I have to resort to arresting him.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

Just how tricky would it be if person A had a valid paper ticket for a Longbridge to Five Ways journey, but just 5 mins after departing Longbridge he decides to continue his journey to Birmingham so he purchases on the app a Five Ways to Birmingham New Street advance for the train he is currently on. He doesn't need to leave the train at Five Ways meaning he won't get his ticket scanned there and once past Five Ways he bins his paper ticket as he no longer needs this. Upon arriving at New Street, the barriers go off and he is met by BTP and revenue staff telling him his ticket wasn't scanned at Five Ways as it was blocked. He tells them he came from Longbridge and had a ticket for that journey, but they demand to produce it or he faces a letter. How does he get out of this?

The answers already given give the general tone - but to expand a little, it's important to remember that laws, byelaws and conditions of travel are not fully comprehensive in the way that (say) the law of gravity is - they're human constructs which are designed to deal with more or less every case, but which will, inevitably, fail if something sufficiently unlikely happens. That's why we have courts with magistrates and judges: when the facts and the law are clear then everything goes through as expected - but when there's a sufficient mismatch, the court will need to make a common sense judgment. And because the courts are also fallible human constructs, populated by fallible humans, sometimes the courts will get it wrong. Which is why we have appeal courts.

 

[dannypye9999]

There are no Advance fares between Five Ways and Birmingham New Street so I would invite him to stop playing silly beggars and to start co-operating before I have to resort to arresting him.

Only because it's nearly happened to me during Summer when I travelled Birmingham New Street to Crewe on split tickets since it was the cheapest option. Bought a Birmingham New Street to Stafford on a paper ticket from a TVM and then during the train journey I bought an advance ticket Stafford to Crewe saving myself around £10. There were no ticket checks on train until after Stafford when the guard came and checked my Stafford to Crewe ticket. He then started shouting me why I only have a Stafford to Crewe ticket as he didn't see me get on at Stafford. Glad I still had my Birmingham to Stafford paper ticket to back myself up as could've easily been that silly beggar and put my ticket into the bin!

 

[BazingaTribe]

Only because it's nearly happened to me during Summer when I travelled Birmingham New Street to Crewe on split tickets since it was the cheapest option. Bought a Birmingham New Street to Stafford on a paper ticket from a TVM and then during the train journey I bought an advance ticket Stafford to Crewe saving myself around £10. There were no ticket checks on train until after Stafford when the guard came and checked my Stafford to Crewe ticket. He then started shouting me why I only have a Stafford to Crewe ticket as he didn't see me get on at Stafford. Glad I still had my Birmingham to Stafford paper ticket to back myself up as could've easily been that silly beggar and put my ticket into the bin!

You obviously knew to keep your tickets in hand until you left the station. That way you have proof of what you're saying and it'll be ok when you're asked for them, and it's part of your responsibility when travelling by rail not to dispose of stuff before the journey is completed.

While edge cases exist, you need to take account of the situation and not dispose of any tickets you had for your journey. The buck stops with you, ultimately, and if you don't have the correct ticket or proof of payment in your possession, then you can't argue when you're stopped by revenue.

 

[Trainman40083]

You obviously knew to keep your tickets in hand until you left the station. That way you have proof of what you're saying and it'll be ok when you're asked for them, and it's part of your responsibility when travelling by rail not to dispose of stuff before the journey is completed.

While edge cases exist, you need to take account of the situation and not dispose of any tickets you had for your journey. The buck stops with you, ultimately, and if you don't have the correct ticket or proof of payment in your possession, then you can't argue when you're stopped by revenue.

It is a bit like shopping. I always ask for a receipt, just in case I go in another shop that sells the same item. I have proof of purchase, and it is just as important on the trains.

 

[Sh13lds]

Hi

Not sure if this is the right platform, but I’m Just posting this for any people that may be anxious about receiving a letter after being court, and to let it be known that there is always a light at the end of the tunnel.

I won’t specify where, but I got a train from X (South Birmingham Station) to new street 3 months ago. Stupidly, I thought I’d save myself a few extra quid and buy the closest ticket to new street station. However when I scanned my ticket at new street station, it flagged up on the train inspectors scanner that it hadn’t scanned at the station I was meant to come from. Therefore, they knew that I’d paid the shortest journey and ‘evaded’ the train fare.

After countless amount of days up until today, I’d feel anxious everyday, worrying about getting a letter with them ordering a straight court order, rather than an out-of-court settlement fee(settlement fee). Incase you didn’t know, when prosecuted in court, can lead to a criminal record conviction. After spiralling on this forum page, seeing how many people getting court orders with no other choice, it built my anxiety up, until today…

I got home after a long day of work, and had received a letter offering a settlement fee. Despite it being around the £200 mark, it only left a smile on my face, knowing that my job and future wouldn’t be jeopardised. In hindsight, of course I should’ve just paid the full amount, but my complacency got in the way.

This is just a post for anyone who is stewing on the thought of potentially receiving just a court order, hopefully this post settles your nerves slightly. Any questions, ask, but I won’t give you specific details lol.

Hello, im just wondering how long you waited to receive your letter? I am currently waiting for mine, and it has been three weeks today since the event. I know they are allowed 6 Months but am just really hoping I will receive it before Christmas.

 

[Hadders]

Hello, im just wondering how long you waited to receive your letter? I am currently waiting for mine, and it has been three weeks today since the event. I know they are allowed 6 Months but am just really hoping I will receive it before Christmas.

If you need advice about your own case then please start a new thread and we will be happy to assist. This is because we only want to discuss one case in each thread to avoid confusion and also becuase no two cases are ever quite the same, however similar they might appear to be at first.