Hope Valley temporary "timetable"

[yorksrob]

The current temporary so-called timetable on the Hope Valley is terrible. It's bad enough that they've chopped the stopper to an irregular 2+ hourly gap, but why persist with the needless missing out of stops at Edale ?

When the previous stopping train from Sheffield is at 13:14, what possible justification can there be for missing out the Edale stop on the 15:46. This is a rhetorical question.

Very poor planning IMO.

 

[Peterthegreat]

The Northern "Temporary" service is a disgrace. It takes no account whatsoever into passenger requirements. They freely admit they have just taken out set diagrams.

 

[yorksrob]

The Northern "Temporary" service is a disgrace. It takes no account whatsoever into passenger requirements. They freely admit they have just taken out set diagrams.

If that's the case, then it shows an appalling lack of attention to detail. There can be no operational justification for not putting in s temporary stop in the remaining service in cases such as above.

 

[Peterthegreat]

If that's the case, then it shows an appalling lack of attention to detail. There can be no operational justification for not putting in s temporary stop in the remaining service in cases such as above.

Extract of Northern's response to my MP

We were faced with little option but to introduce a revised timetable. This is never an easy thing to do, because where do you make the cuts that will: a) save sufficient resources; and b) enable customers to travel as necessary. We do this by removing whole vehicle rosters, it is important to do it in this way because if we took out individual services, we are likely to be left with vehicles in the wrong place, that will require traincrew to relocate them and therefore offer no real saving in personnel. There is far more to it than this, and clearly, we look at the commercial/customer service connotations of any changes, but the alterations were necessary and there were no easy options.

They have done absolutely nothing to mitigate anything.

 

[yorksrob]

Extract of Northern's response to my MP

We were faced with little option but to introduce a revised timetable. This is never an easy thing to do, because where do you make the cuts that will: a) save sufficient resources; and b) enable customers to travel as necessary. We do this by removing whole vehicle rosters, it is important to do it in this way because if we took out individual services, we are likely to be left with vehicles in the wrong place, that will require traincrew to relocate them and therefore offer no real saving in personnel. There is far more to it than this, and clearly, we look at the commercial/customer service connotations of any changes, but the alterations were necessary and there were no easy options.

They have done absolutely nothing to mitigate anything.

Out of interest, what line is it that you were complaining about ?

 

[Glenn1969]

The current temporary so-called timetable on the Hope Valley is terrible. It's bad enough that they've chopped the stopper to an irregular 2+ hourly gap, but why persist with the needless missing out of stops at Edale ?

When the previous stopping train from Sheffield is at 13:14, what possible justification can there be for missing out the Edale stop on the 15:46. This is a rhetorical question.

Very poor planning IMO.

Current RTT has the 1314, 1414 and 1514 all missing out Edale which leaves a 4 hour gap ex Sheffield. On 7th Feb only the 1414 has the stop restored. Surely not satisfactory for Hope Valley passengers ?

 

[yorksrob]

Current RTT has the 1314, 1414 and 1514 all missing out Edale which leaves a 4 hour gap ex Sheffield. On 7th Feb only the 1414 has the stop restored. Surely not satisfactory for Hope Valley passengers ?

Indeed. Quite appalling.

I must admit, I want aware that this state of affairs was due to last until 7th February !

 

[robbeech]

The Northern "Temporary" service is a disgrace. It takes no account whatsoever into passenger requirements. They freely admit they have just taken out set diagrams.

Non of them were designed to take passenger requirements into account. Zero consideration has been put into passenger requirements in decades. It’s the easiest way to take out a block of services without having to replan. They’re absolutely right that if they just got rid if some they’d end up with trains out of place because they’d have to plan things and that’s simply too much like hard work. Take out a diagram, it takes half a dozen clicks of a button leaving them more time to sort out staff whereabouts. I suspect nobody has even stopped for a single second to think about the results of those few clicks as we see here with a 4 hour gap appearing.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Non of them were designed to take passenger requirements into account. Zero consideration has been put into passenger requirements in decades. It’s the easiest way to take out a block of services without having to replan. They’re absolutely right that if they just got rid if some they’d end up with trains out of place because they’d have to plan things and that’s simply too much like hard work. Take out a diagram, it takes half a dozen clicks of a button leaving them more time to sort out staff whereabouts. I suspect nobody has even stopped for a single second to think about the results of those few clicks as we see here with a 4 hour gap appearing.

Spot on!

 

[yorksrob]

Non of them were designed to take passenger requirements into account. Zero consideration has been put into passenger requirements in decades. It’s the easiest way to take out a block of services without having to replan. They’re absolutely right that if they just got rid if some they’d end up with trains out of place because they’d have to plan things and that’s simply too much like hard work. Take out a diagram, it takes half a dozen clicks of a button leaving them more time to sort out staff whereabouts. I suspect nobody has even stopped for a single second to think about the results of those few clicks as we see here with a 4 hour gap appearing.

It's not as though the it would be massively difficult to insert the Edale stop into the train thats running !

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not as though the it would be massively difficult to insert the Edale stop into the train thats running !

Why's it missing to start with? Freight pathing? That reason probably still exists.

 

[yorksrob]

Why's it missing to start with? Freight pathing? That reason probably still exists.

I think when you've got a for hour gap in service, it's time for the freight pathing to bear a minor adjustment.

 

[robbeech]

Why's it missing to start with? Freight pathing? That reason probably still exists.

Even if it is, it’s not acceptable and these are generally booked for 195s which are pretty swift off the mark.

 

[Dr Hoo]

The current temporary so-called timetable on the Hope Valley is terrible. It's bad enough that they've chopped the stopper to an irregular 2+ hourly gap, but why persist with the needless missing out of stops at Edale ?

When the previous stopping train from Sheffield is at 13:14, what possible justification can there be for missing out the Edale stop on the 15:46. This is a rhetorical question.

Very poor planning IMO.

There is a freight path from the Guide Bridge direction across Chinley North Junction immediately behind the 1546. It passes over the single line chord to Chinley South Junction where there is a loaded path to Bredbury waiting to use the same chord on minimum re-occupation. If that's late get ready to kiss goodbye to evening peak punctuality around Manchester.

I don't think that everyone* realises just how tight the whole Hope Valley timetable is with numerous flat junctions, single line bottlenecks, long and heavy freights starting from rest, and long and uneven block sections with manual signalling.

(*I'm sure that you do, Rob, but not some other people. )

 

[yorksrob]

There is a freight path from the Guide Bridge direction across Chinley North Junction immediately behind the 1546. It passes over the single line chord to Chinley South Junction where there is a loaded path to Bredbury waiting to use the same chord on minimum re-occupation. If that's late get ready to kiss goodbye to evening peak punctuality around Manchester.

I don't think that everyone* realises just how tight the whole Hope Valley timetable is with numerous flat junctions, single line bottlenecks, long and heavy freights starting from rest, and long and uneven block sections with manual signalling.

(*I'm sure that you do, Rob, but not some other people. )

Has anyone checked whether the path from Guide Bridge can still run with the additional minutes of an Edale call, or whether it can run earlier, or even whether it's likely to run at all ?

Are there other unused freight paths that can be used instead ?

If things are really that tight around Chinley, perhaps it's time they did reinstate the route South to Derby to take some of the freight services.

 

[Peterthegreat]

There is a freight path from the Guide Bridge direction across Chinley North Junction immediately behind the 1546. It passes over the single line chord to Chinley South Junction where there is a loaded path to Bredbury waiting to use the same chord on minimum re-occupation. If that's late get ready to kiss goodbye to evening peak punctuality around Manchester.

I don't think that everyone* realises just how tight the whole Hope Valley timetable is with numerous flat junctions, single line bottlenecks, long and heavy freights starting from rest, and long and uneven block sections with manual signalling.

(*I'm sure that you do, Rob, but not some other people. )

The freight from the Guide Bridge direction has not operated all week!

 

[tbtc]

Even if it is, it’s not acceptable and these are generally booked for 195s which are pretty swift off the mark.

Diagrams still have to be based around the slowest stock that might operate (e.g. some of Northern's services that are generally run by 158s have to be pathed to allow a 150/156 to operate them just in case)

There is a freight path from the Guide Bridge direction across Chinley North Junction immediately behind the 1546. It passes over the single line chord to Chinley South Junction where there is a loaded path to Bredbury waiting to use the same chord on minimum re-occupation. If that's late get ready to kiss goodbye to evening peak punctuality around Manchester.

I don't think that everyone* realises just how tight the whole Hope Valley timetable is with numerous flat junctions, single line bottlenecks, long and heavy freights starting from rest, and long and uneven block sections with manual signalling.

(*I'm sure that you do, Rob, but not some other people. )

Agreed - the Hope Valley line is a complicated combination of flat junctions/ single line chords/ lack of loops or platforms at which a "fast" service can overtake a "slow" one - it's a fascinating one to try to path but people applying simplistic suggestions doesn't tend to work very well

If any station can cope with a reduction in services then Edale in January seems a reasonable target, given that a lot of the passenger demand is leisure for the Pennine Way etc, which tends to be more about weekends/ summertime - I'm not saying it's ideal but if skipping one station is the difference between a service being able to be pathed or not then that's a cut I'm prepared to make (since the alternatives are missing a slot at Manchester/ Sheffield or delaying the fast services which have no scope to recover elsewhere or having insufficient turnaround time at the termini etc)

If things are really that tight around Chinley, perhaps it's time they did reinstate the route South to Derby to take some of the freight services.

I thought it'd take at least twenty comments until a mention of the Hope Valley line saw someone suggesting we spend a billion pounds on the route through Bakewell, darn!

 

[yorksrob]

Diagrams still have to be based around the slowest stock that might operate (e.g. some of Northern's services that are generally run by 158s have to be pathed to allow a 150/156 to operate them just in case)



Agreed - the Hope Valley line is a complicated combination of flat junctions/ single line chords/ lack of loops or platforms at which a "fast" service can overtake a "slow" one - it's a fascinating one to try to path but people applying simplistic suggestions doesn't tend to work very well

If any station can cope with a reduction in services then Edale in January seems a reasonable target, given that a lot of the passenger demand is leisure for the Pennine Way etc, which tends to be more about weekends/ summertime - I'm not saying it's ideal but if skipping one station is the difference between a service being able to be pathed or not then that's a cut I'm prepared to make (since the alternatives are missing a slot at Manchester/ Sheffield or delaying the fast services which have no scope to recover elsewhere or having insufficient turnaround time at the termini etc)



I thought it'd take at least twenty comments until a mention of the Hope Valley line saw someone suggesting we spend a billion pounds on the route through Bakewell, darn!

Well, it is the ones who claim it's impossible to stop a train somewhere due to pathing issues, who tend to get all annoyed about the idea of actually having an alternative route !

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yeah. Ten years+ of work and a billion quid to enable an additional stop at Edale. Welcome to the RailUK Forums.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah. Ten years+ of work and a billion quid to enable an additional stop at Edale. Welcome to the RailUK Forums.

Or, just stop the train and run a bloody passenger service that doesn't have four hour gaps in it - even if it means that phantom freight trains that run twice a year are disrupted !

 

[30907]

Or, just stop the train and run a bloody passenger service that doesn't have four hour gaps in it - even if it means that phantom freight trains that run twice a year are disrupted !

And there was I thinking rail freight was important to the economy or the environment or something....

 

[yorksrob]

And there was I thinking rail freight was important to the economy or the environment or something....

If it's that important, it can take four minutes longer.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Jan 2022 ==

We can have all of these discussions. I wonder if anyone has bothered to assess whether stopping the 15:43 would cause all of this disruption. How are we, as passengers to know.

 

[30907]

If it's that important, it can take four minutes longer.

...right through the centre of Manchester...
And the 1710 Picc to Rose Hill and how many other trains.
Putting the 1414 back in 10 days reduces the gap to what would be considered normal at say Ribblehead.

 

[yorksrob]

...right through the centre of Manchester...
And the 1710 Picc to Rose Hill and how many other trains.
Putting the 1414 back in 10 days reduces the gap to what would be considered normal at say Ribblehead.

And the centre of Manchester is supposed to deal with issues, that's why it has fewer trains than 2018.

I love Ribblehead, but I have to admit, is not the best service in the world and there ain't a lot around there. Why should users of Edale be expected to be satisfied with a Ribblehead service instead of something akin to their usual one ?

I'm still not convinced anyone has bothered to look at what effect stopping the remaining services at Edale would be.

 

[Starmill]

...right through the centre of Manchester...
And the 1710 Picc to Rose Hill and how many other trains.
Putting the 1414 back in 10 days reduces the gap to what would be considered normal at say Ribblehead.

I really don't think that you could amend the 1628 from New Mills Central. In most hours this is the service that starts there too, but in this hour it is the 1605 that starts there rather than coming from Sheffield.

To call at Edale the train would need to leave Sheffield approximately 3 minutes earlier. As the 1311 service from Cleethorpes currently isn't running, it probably actually could do so if it didn't reduce its turnaround time to only 4 minutes. Also Northern cannot rely on the TPE just not running because these changes are not coordinated together.

 

[tbtc]

Yeah. Ten years+ of work and a billion quid to enable an additional stop at Edale. Welcome to the RailUK Forums.

Yup, already a strong contender for 2022's coveted "Weakest Need To Spend A Billion Pounds" award - the fact that Edale has a gap in the middle of the day (that's the tiny village of Edale, where the Pennine Way ramblers are going to be in fairly short supply in January)

If it's that important, it can take four minutes longer

But it can't, Rob - look at where it's going to conflict with other services, missing its slot at the next junction or forcing something else to run out of sync (turning a clock face timetable on another bit of line into a lopsided service)

For many years Edale only had a bi-hourly service anyway, the change from a bi-hourly 142 to an hourly 195 is most welcome but it's not like Edale has had an hourly service for decades - if you're this upset about a leisure dominated station like Edale having a gap in the middle of the day then I think you are going to be aghast at some of the cuts that the railway will have over the next couple of years. Pick your battles!

 

[yorksrob]

Yup, already a strong contender for 2022's coveted "Weakest Need To Spend A Billion Pounds" award - the fact that Edale has a gap in the middle of the day (that's the tiny village of Edale, where the Pennine Way ramblers are going to be in fairly short supply in January)



But it can't, Rob - look at where it's going to conflict with other services, missing its slot at the next junction or forcing something else to run out of sync (turning a clock face timetable on another bit of line into a lopsided service)

For many years Edale only had a bi-hourly service anyway, the change from a bi-hourly 142 to an hourly 195 is most welcome but it's not like Edale has had an hourly service for decades - if you're this upset about a leisure dominated station like Edale having a gap in the middle of the day then I think you are going to be aghast at some of the cuts that the railway will have over the next couple of years. Pick your battles!

So how does a past bi-hourly service justify a current four hour gap ?

If the powers that be are planning on introducing four hour gaps in hourly/two hourly services, we do need to fight them.

 

[tbtc]

So how does a past bi-hourly service justify a current four hour gap ?

If the powers that be are planning on introducing four hour gaps in hourly/two hourly services, we do need to fight them.

A temporary four hour gap during the middle of the day, during the quietest time of the year at a leisure destination like Edale does need to be seen in the context of all day gaps of two hours for many years, yes

I know you're fond of hyperbole but "fighting" the Government? Seriously? Do you mean writing a letter to your MP, or taking the the barricades to try to force them to run as many trains as you want? It's a nationalised railway, all of the things like franchise commitments and being able to embarrass "bus" companies are long gone, all that's left is a Government free to set whatever levels of service they want - just like they abandoned the hourly Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford service and other routes - this is a nationalised railway - you can "fight" them all you want but they hold all the cards. Shame nobody could have predicted this, eh?

 

[Bald Rick]

Suggest a few people on this thread should apply to Northern for a job in train / resource planning, work it out for themselves, and come back to tell us how easy it was (or not).

 

[yorksrob]

A temporary four hour gap during the middle of the day, during the quietest time of the year at a leisure destination like Edale does need to be seen in the context of all day gaps of two hours for many years, yes

I know you're fond of hyperbole but "fighting" the Government? Seriously? Do you mean writing a letter to your MP, or taking the the barricades to try to force them to run as many trains as you want? It's a nationalised railway, all of the things like franchise commitments and being able to embarrass "bus" companies are long gone, all that's left is a Government free to set whatever levels of service they want - just like they abandoned the hourly Huddersfield - Wakefield - Castleford service and other routes - this is a nationalised railway - you can "fight" them all you want but they hold all the cards. Shame nobody could have predicted this, eh?

It worked on the Settle and Carlisle.

Suggest a few people on this thread should apply to Northern for a job in train / resource planning, work it out for themselves, and come back to tell us how easy it was (or not).

The usual excuse for leaving passengers high and dry.

Would a for hour gap be seen as acceptable in Surrey i wonder.