Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

Currently 0E63 1128 Hope (Earles Sidings) Dbs to Belmont Down Yard seems to have become becalmed in Dore & Totley Platform 2. It's been there since arriving early at 11.38; https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:H05783/2024-07-01/detailed

Consequently Northern 2T78 1048 Manchester Piccadilly to Sheffield is stuck at Grindleford and TPE 1B74 1019 Liverpool Lime Street to Cleethorpes is backed up at Hathersage. Consequent delays will be mounting.

At the time of the 2016 Public Inquiry it was suggested that the 2 platforms at Dore should be made bi-directional and an option for that trackwork was left in one of the plans forming part of the documentation.

Even without that it should surely be possible to signal those blocked passenger services through Platform 1?

Since the new scheme went live only 3 months ago we've seen 2 EMR trains stopped in Dore Platform 1 for an hour or more that could have been bypassed through 2 if such an arrangement had been made possible.

Updated. The blocked Northern service was terminated at Grindleford and has returned to Manchester. Apparently all eastbound trains will be terminated there due to an 'operational incident'. Getting to Sheffield from Grindleford is an interesting challenge. The 65 bus is infrequent.

 

[zwk500]

At the time of the 2016 Public Inquiry it was suggested that the 2 platforms at Dore should be made bi-directional and an option for that trackwork was left in one of the plans forming part of the documentation.

Even without that it should surely be possible to signal those blocked passenger services through Platform 1?

From a quick look at the signalling diagrams, a standard overlap for a main aspect signal (180m) at the Sheffield end of Platform 1 would likely be foul of the Down Main at Dore Station Junction (clearing point of 4034 points). As the curve is lower speed a shorter overlap is likely fine, the points are obviously already power operated and locked, so the main consideration would the cost of the extra Axle Counter section, the cost for the interlocking of the additional routes, and the relative value of them.

Given the location of Dore Station I think the provision of a wrong-road signal on platform 1 with a route towards Sheffield would have been quite sensible. It gives the secondary regulation option you've already mentioned, and if there's a problem in Totley Tunnel allows turnback towards Sheffield and if there's a problem at Sheffield would allow eastbound trains to terminate short and return to Manchester but having got at least within taxi/bus range of Sheffield.

 

[175001]

I was on board the unit turned back at Grindleford. 0E63 unfortunately had a SPAD at Dore.

 

[Killingworth]

From a quick look at the signalling diagrams, a standard overlap for a main aspect signal (180m) at the Sheffield end of Platform 1 would likely be foul of the Down Main at Dore Station Junction (clearing point of 4034 points). As the curve is lower speed a shorter overlap is likely fine, the points are obviously already power operated and locked, so the main consideration would the cost of the extra Axle Counter section, the cost for the interlocking of the additional routes, and the relative value of them.

Given the location of Dore Station I think the provision of a wrong-road signal on platform 1 with a route towards Sheffield would have been quite sensible. It gives the secondary regulation option you've already mentioned, and if there's a problem in Totley Tunnel allows turnback towards Sheffield and if there's a problem at Sheffield would allow eastbound trains to terminate short and return to Manchester but having got at least within taxi/bus range of Sheffield.

Absolutely! Given potential disruption between Dore and Sheffield during electrification work that option would be invaluable.

Mind you, Grindleford Station Cafe may have done well today, assuming potential rail users were happy to wait. A 4 hour gap between stopping services into Sheffield, and even that was 20 minutes late!

 

[Killingworth]

Work still continues both at Dore & Totley station and on the embankment by the Dore curve/chord/loop.

At the station there are lots of snagging issues to be resolved, the most noticeable to users probably connecting the lights on the footbridge. It's had temporary lights on 24/7 since opening in March. A safety refuge at the south end of new Platform 1 is almost complete, but until it is 2 fire safety marshals are on site from first to last train each day.



The retaining walls being built below Poynton Wood by West View Lane are proceeding slowly, but somewhat delayed after discovering the hillside wasn't as expected + the heavy rain. September completion seems optimistic. Signal troughing also needed with much else to be tidied up. Residents were originally told this work would be completed in August 2023 and are just a little fed up!



Rumours from the Hope Valley suggest the Hathersage West footbridge may be almost ready to allow reopening of the footpath that's been closed for 2 years.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

A safety refuge at the south end of new Platform 1 is almost complete, but until it is 2 fire safety marshals are on site from first to last train each day.

Thanks for the update, but why does a platform that I would assume is entirely outside and in the open air need a fire safety refuge?

Do the fire safety marshals actually have anything to do, or are they just standing around all day on the unlikely offchance that one day a fire happens in the middle of this outdoor platform?

 

[WesternBiker]

Work still continues both at Dore & Totley station and on the embankment by the Dore curve/chord/loop.

At the station there are lots of snagging issues to be resolved, the most noticeable to users probably connecting the lights on the footbridge. It's had temporary lights on 24/7 since opening in March. A safety refuge at the south end of new Platform 1 is almost complete, but until it is 2 fire safety marshals are on site from first to last train each day.

View attachment 163639

The retaining walls being built below Poynton Wood by West View Lane are proceeding slowly, but somewhat delayed after discovering the hillside wasn't as expected + the heavy rain. September completion seems optimistic. Signal troughing also needed with much else to be tidied up. Residents were originally told this work would be completed in August 2023 and are just a little fed up!

View attachment 163646 View attachment 163647

Rumours from the Hope Valley suggest the Hathersage West footbridge may be almost ready to allow reopening of the footpath that's been closed for 2 years.

Thanks for the great photographs and continued updates.

I'm puzzled that the refuge and bridge lighting has been so delayed (though I can understand the delays due to the weather etc on the retaining walls for the extended Dore curve). I can empathise with the residents of the flats above it though, having had to suffer with a road improvement scheme that took 2 years instead of 12...!

 

[Trainman40083]

Thanks for the update, but why does a platform that I would assume is entirely outside and in the open air need a fire safety refuge?

Do the fire safety marshals actually have anything to do, or are they just standing around all day on the unlikely offchance that one day a fire happens in the middle of this outdoor platform?

One wonders if it anything to do with the lift.

 

[Northerngirl]

Thanks for the update, but why does a platform that I would assume is entirely outside and in the open air need a fire safety refuge?

Do the fire safety marshals actually have anything to do, or are they just standing around all day on the unlikely offchance that one day a fire happens in the middle of this outdoor platform?

How else would they justify the million trillion pounds that the project has cost, we can never be certain than a concrete rectangular won't suddenly combust, got to build another useless bit of ground instead (at great expense)

 

[td97]

The risk is there is a fire onboard a train which stops at the station (scheduled passenger stop, or emergency), which requires an evacuation of passengers on board the service and those waiting at the platform.
Similar to the Class 175 episode at Wilmslow https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23355595.second-train-fire-week-wilmslow-station/

 

[Trainman40083]

The risk is there is a fire onboard a train which stops at the station (scheduled passenger stop, or emergency), which requires an evacuation of passengers on board the service and those waiting at the platform.
Similar to the Class 175 episode at Wilmslow https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23355595.second-train-fire-week-wilmslow-station/

But surely that would then apply to every unmanned railway station in the country.

 

[Elecman]

The risk is there is a fire onboard a train which stops at the station (scheduled passenger stop, or emergency), which requires an evacuation of passengers on board the service and those waiting at the platform.
Similar to the Class 175 episode at Wilmslow https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23355595.second-train-fire-week-wilmslow-station/

But surely that would then apply to every unmanned railway station in the country.

The down platform at Buckshaw Parkway has a fire exit route off the Preston end of the platform that doesn’t actually go anywhere so presumably is just a safe refuge

 

[fishwomp]

But surely that would then apply to every unmanned railway station in the country.

including some with wooden platforms. Deighton, Saltaire, .. or with wooden canopies ..

The idea of two fire marshals being required at Dore until it is up to the new spec is just lunacy. Utterly futile. I wonder how long they trained for the role too.

 

[Killingworth]

including some with wooden platforms. Deighton, Saltaire, .. or with wooden canopies ..

The idea of two fire marshals being required at Dore until it is up to the new spec is just lunacy. Utterly futile. I wonder how long they trained for the role too.

There is nothing much to burn at D & T except a train and electrical parts on the lifts.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

Thanks for the update, but why does a platform that I would assume is entirely outside and in the open air need a fire safety refuge?

Do the fire safety marshals actually have anything to do, or are they just standing around all day on the unlikely offchance that one day a fire happens in the middle of this outdoor platform?

Why does it need a refuge? Because new barrow crossings are now forbidden and if the footbridge were in any way unavailable there needs to be somewhere safe to await rescue. I suspect it's very unlikely ever to be called upon, and if there was an emergency many users would find a way to cross the tracks, but they shouldn't!

The 'fire safety marshals' have nothing to do. Some of them have helped carry a bag when the lifts didn't work. Some have chatted to passengers. Many just sit in their car/van for most of their shift. What they'd do in an emergency nobody knows because the chances are incredibly low yet there are innumerable possible scenarios. What is certain is that paying 4 men a day for over 5 months is adding yet more cost to the project - all travelling long distances every day by car to the site.

But heh ho,strange accidents do occur. Like at Dore & Totley on 9th October 1907, see Board of Trade Accident Report; https://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docsummary.php?docID=2460

 

[plugwash]

But surely that would then apply to every unmanned railway station in the country.

For better or worse, very different standards are applied to new projects than to existing infrastructure.

 

[Spartacus]

It's just one of those things, 99.99% of the time they'll be unnecessary, and people will say they shouldn't be there, and it's an unnecessary cost. Until the one time they are needed, and if they're not there people would wail that it was an obvious risk and marshals should have been provided.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Why does it need a refuge? Because new barrow crossings are now forbidden and if the footbridge were in any way unavailable there needs to be somewhere safe to await rescue. I suspect it's very unlikely ever to be called upon, and if there was an emergency many users would find a way to cross the tracks, but they shouldn't!

OK. Am I right in thinking that this is for the new Manchester-bound platform, for which the only exit is via the footbridge, or (in an emergency, illegally) crossing the tracks? Presumably if there was an emergency like a train fire at that platform, all other trains in the vicinity would quickly be stopped anyway, so there wouldn't actually be much danger if passengers took it upon themselves to cross the tracks.

The 'fire safety marshals' have nothing to do. Some of them have helped carry a bag when the lifts didn't work. Some have chatted to passengers. Many just sit in their car/van for most of their shift. What they'd do in an emergency nobody knows because the chances are incredibly low yet there are innumerable possible scenarios. What is certain is that paying 4 men a day for over 5 months is adding yet more cost to the project - all travelling long distances every day by car to the site.

Thanks for the info. That really does sound to me like over-the-top safety culture that goes way beyond what is reasonable and - like you say - just adds to the cost, making it harder to deliver rail improvement projects. Plus if they are travelling a long distance by car, that itself adds a risk of someone being killed due to a road accident. It has to be plausible that that adds a greater overall net risk than is saved by having the fire marshals there.

 

[Spartacus]

OK. Am I right in thinking that this is for the new Manchester-bound platform, for which the only exit is via the footbridge, or (in an emergency, illegally) crossing the tracks? Presumably if there was an emergency like a train fire at that platform, all other trains in the vicinity would quickly be stopped anyway, so there wouldn't actually be much danger if passengers took it upon themselves to cross the tracks.

Plenty of people have made such an assumption during an emergency situation and come a cropper. Besides, it it were a freight or other long train with a fire part way along there may be no route across the tracks.

 

[The exile]

OK. Am I right in thinking that this is for the new Manchester-bound platform, for which the only exit is via the footbridge, or (in an emergency, illegally) crossing the tracks? Presumably if there was an emergency like a train fire at that platform, all other trains in the vicinity would quickly be stopped anyway, so there wouldn't actually be much danger if passengers took it upon themselves to cross the tracks.



Thanks for the info. That really does sound to me like over-the-top safety culture that goes way beyond what is reasonable and - like you say - just adds to the cost, making it harder to deliver rail improvement projects. Plus if they are travelling a long distance by car, that itself adds a risk of someone being killed due to a road accident. It has to be plausible that that adds a greater overall net risk than is saved by having the fire marshals there.

Also - if tgat is the reason for their being there, then they should surely be on the platform concerned at all times - not sat in a van in the car park and thus needing to do what the public mustn’t in case of emergency.

 

[zwk500]

How else would they justify the million trillion pounds that the project has cost

Is the project actually paying for these marshals?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Aug 2024 ==

But surely that would then apply to every unmanned railway station in the country.

Although there are many stations that would need a refuge if not grandfathered, there are also many stations where each platform has an independent exit to the street, or where they use a ramp for access rather than a lift.

 

[ABB125]

Is the project actually paying for these marshals?

Who else would be paying, if not the project?

 

[zwk500]

Who else would be paying, if not the project?

The operator, a local authority, or NR but out of a different budget.

 

[CdBrux]

The operator, a local authority, or NR but out of a different budget.

and we wonder why rail requires a large subsidy!

 

[Spartacus]

and we wonder why rail requires a large subsidy!

Thing is doing otherwise would man accepting more risk, and nobody wants to admit that they'd put passengers at risk even the slightest bit more for money. That makes big 'how much is a life worth?' kind of headlines, even before any accident might happen, and ruins careers.

Anyway, I think we're going quite off track now.

 

[CdBrux]

I'm not arguing against safety, it's that this part of the work is still uncompleted and racking up a cost of these safety marshals as a result

 

[Killingworth]

Update from local Facebook post this morning, a letter just being received by residents near the Dore loop work, with a comment from this recipient about a further 5 weekends of noisy disruption. They haven't posted the dates but it may take the work into October. Total completion of all work looks likely to drag on until the end of the year.

Local residents are totally fed up with this scheme for which they perceive minimal significant benefit - and some now argue the net effects in the round are actually negative.


Updated - I've just received a letter. Every weekend until 21/22nd September. I live 250 yards away but fortunately am shielded from the noise by the hillside and Poynton Wood!

​

 

[Spartacus]

I wouldn't have though that Network rail and the train operators are exactly over the moon about it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Update from local Facebook post this morning, a letter just being received by residents near the Dore loop work, with a comment from this recipient about a further 5 weekends of noisy disruption. They haven't posted the dates but it may take the work into October. Total completion of all work looks likely to drag on until the end of the year.

Local residents are totally fed up with this scheme for which they perceive minimal significant benefit - and some now argue the net effects in the round are actually negative.
View attachment 163682

Updated - I've just received a letter. Every weekend until 21/22nd September. I live 250 yards away but fortunately am shielded from the noise by the hillside and Poynton Wood!

​

Is this project twinned with the Ferguson shipyard? A project which always finds a reason to never be complete?

 

[IanXC]

If Dore without commissioned lifts requires Fire Marshalls, you have to question whether any station where lifts provide the only level access to a platform also need Fire Marshalls if said lifts are the only access!

As they clearly don't, you have to wonder what the motivation for having them at Dore is!?

 

[Killingworth]

If Dore without commissioned lifts requires Fire Marshalls, you have to question whether any station where lifts provide the only level access to a platform also need Fire Marshalls if said lifts are the only access!

As they clearly don't, you have to wonder what the motivation for having them at Dore is!?

The lifts were only out of action for about 2 weeks. That hasn't been the reason for the safety marshals. It seems that the latest station safety rules required emergency exits at both ends of the old platform (that had managed without for the last 152 years) and a safety refuge at the south end of the new platform in case users were unable to use the bridge. Suggestonss of a hypothetical train on fire from end to end in the station have been made.

The ramped emergency exits are lit with lights concealed in the undersides of the handrails. The emergency refuge is also lit and has PA loudspeakers.

The fact that money could be found for these features somewhat surprises local users who have lost a covered waiting shelter with bench to seat a cosy 10 plus standees without replacement. There is now no covered seating on the old platform (although some perch/squat seats are supposed to compensate). .All that money used to provide for a very unlikely scenario but none for the convenience and comfort of passengers every day.