Hope Valley Capacity Scheme updates

[Killingworth]

Thanks for finding those! I would imagine a 4-car platform for turning round sprinters could be squeezed in with maybe a little re-alignment, although there are few actual plans beyond this forum at the moment I don’t think.

I can get hold of all the material submitted to the inquiry by Network Rail, but not until after the bank holiday weekend. I copied a few bits with my phone at the time.

 

[DanTrain]

I can get hold of all the material submitted to the inquiry by Network Rail, but not until after the bank holiday weekend. I copied a few bits with my phone at the time.

Would be a great read if you could do, thanks

 

[AndrewE]

Whilst being in sympathy with the underlying point about sustainable and environmentally friendly access to railheads have you ever actually been to Dore (or other stations along the Hope Valley line)?
The fact that the current Dore car park is full from early in the morning leads to a lot of 'nuisance' parking in the local area. Many people are driving from nearby hilly rural areas where the gradients, narrow winding roads, lack of street lighting or pavements and absence of regular bus services make alternatives to cars/lifts/taxis infeasible.

I have, to lots of them many times over the years and by many modes of transport. It's one of my regular areas for excursions.
This is the standard "wealthy / privileged" response I have come to expect. We couldn't possibly do that. After all, we might get wet! Don't you know it rains here sometimes? And it's uphill one way too!
In the Netherlands you see bike racks and shelters at rural bus stops. And they (and lots of us) are perfectly capable of cycling, even if a road isn't dead level.
Those who won't are lazy a**se**les, mostly.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I have, to lots of them many times over the years and by many modes of transport. It's one of my regular areas for excursions.
This is the standard "wealthy / privileged" response I have come to expect. We couldn't possibly do that. After all, we might get wet! Don't you know it rains here sometimes? And it's uphill one way too!
In the Netherlands you see bike racks and shelters at rural bus stops. And they (and lots of us) are perfectly capable of cycling, even if a road isn't dead level.
Those who won't are lazy a**se**les, mostly.

Thank you for those comments. In forty years of commuting I never drove to my nearest station on a regular basis (sometimes I was collecting visitors, elderly relatives, etc.) and spent twenty years cycling on a hilly route come rain, snow or shine. However, from knowing many people in and around the Hope Valley line I am under no illusions that to get the maximum benefit from greater capacity for local and regional services stopping at Dore and other stations it will be necessary to improve car parking provision.
It is surely far better to accept a modest trip by car (probably electric in the near future) to a nearby station but 'prevent' a much longer drive, say, over the Snake Pass all the way to Manchester?

 

[Killingworth]

I have, to lots of them many times over the years and by many modes of transport. It's one of my regular areas for excursions.
This is the standard "wealthy / privileged" response I have come to expect. We couldn't possibly do that. After all, we might get wet! Don't you know it rains here sometimes? And it's uphill one way too!
In the Netherlands you see bike racks and shelters at rural bus stops. And they (and lots of us) are perfectly capable of cycling, even if a road isn't dead level.
Those who won't are lazy a**se**les, mostly.

The Hope Valley line trains are much frequented by cyclists and walkers, see the picture below when a group of 6 disembarked at Dore & Totley from the Hope Valley. We're quite an active crowd hereabouts, but an income has to be drawn from somewhere and that may mean a job many miles distant.

The fact that it is indeed hilly in the Peak District, and in Sheffield, and the roads are narrow and/or very busy, rather deters cycling to and from work. Plenty do walk to the stations, and more are jogging to work - as I used to do for 8 miles once a week.

Incidentally, I've cycled in the Netherlands and can confirm it's very flat - but although there aren't many hills the wind can be almost as bad if it's not going your way!

 

[TheManOnThe172]

It is only the Pacers and the over-an-hour gaps in service that is keeping the Hope Valley route from much higher demand - from distances that are unrealistic for cycling even before you allow for the (non-trivial) hills.

Reasonably comfortable trains once an hour, even without any improvement in journey times, would see Grindleford/Hathersage become more attractive than Buxton (even with the new 2-per-hour service) as the railhead for Manchester traffic from the areas around Bakewell, Matlock and even Belper - and Grindleford/Dore for traffic to Sheffield.

 

[furnessvale]

Couldn't that in principle be fixed by just extending the loop a bit, either towards the Hope Valley or towards Chesterfield - running the extension it as a new single track alongside the existing tracks?

Incidentally (and somewhat ironically for this discussion) Google maps actually shows the loop with a freight train on it! That train is pretty long (I'm guessing just over 30 wagons) but clearly (just) fits on the loop, and I be surprised if the longest trains were much longer than that, so I'd surmise that you wouldn't need to extend the loop by very much to fit all trains on it.

The eastbound freight loop was originally to be at Grindleford but was pushed back by various opposition interests and late discovery of constructional difficulties that Network Rail hadn't taken sufficiently into account. At the public inquiry the Bamford loop was then contested as being largely irrelevant because it's so close to Earles Sidings. However trains from Peak Forest are most likely to use it as they start further back towards Chinley, the site of another intended loop that got dropped from the original HVCS proposals after the first round of consultations when the requirement for 4 fast paths per hour was reduced to 3.

The Dore loop may not be long enough for the longest trains, so some may be limited by that constraint.

Ironic that as we all write in this thread work is in progress at Buxton to allow trains from Dowlow to be lengthened from 18 to 27 bogie wagons. If those trains don't fit the Hope Valley loops it will be a monumental waste of time.

Incidentally, the 30 wagon train referred to would be 2 axle (much shorter) wagons.

 

[Killingworth]

In fairness to Pacers, Hope Valley users would rather have a reliable hourly service of these much maligned work horses than no train at all. The rough and ready nature of a Pacer suits the rugged types who come walking and cycling in the Peak District. As my picture shows they can, and do, cram in quite a lot of bikes when the need arises, whatever the official policy may be on bikes! (That train was delayed by 2 or 3 minutes to unload them all.)

60 years ago hikers special trains ran from Manchester to Hope Valley stations. They came to Grindleford to walk up to Longshaw for the sheep dog trials.

 

[Killingworth]

Ironic that as we all write in this thread work is in progress at Buxton to allow trains from Dowlow to be lengthened from 18 to 27 bogie wagons. If those trains don't fit the Hope Valley loops it will be a monumental waste of time.

Incidentally, the 30 wagon train referred to would be 2 axle (much shorter) wagons.

That is indeed the point of the loops, to allow the operation of longer trains. Across the nation more loops and/or relief lines are needed to permit freight services to progress more rapidly and integrate better with passenger services. Many movements into and out of the Peak District are at night to avoid the need for looping.

Fears were expressed at the public inquiry that more non quarry based freight traffic would stream down the Hope Valley. It was well debated that the loading gauge profiles of the Totley and Cowburn tunnels would not permit the operation of many (any?) container trains. I was fascinated to learn how complex a subject gauging is! All the Pennine tunnels were excellent engineering in their day, but standardised European gauges weren't a consideration. But that's a subject for another thread.

 

[Dore & Totley]

A more frequent cross city Sheffield service would be great. I live in Totley and used the train to my job in town. My job moved to Chapeltown in the north of the city. This involved changing trains and means a minimum 1 and a half hour journey door to door. Given the terrible connection times and the infrequent services back to Dore and Totley I am back in the car for a 40 minute journey but would gladly go back to the train.

I had a conference in Salford Quays and found the journey time there comparable to my 15 trip to work!

 

[Killingworth]

A more frequent cross city Sheffield service would be great. I live in Totley and used the train to my job in town. My job moved to Chapeltown in the north of the city. This involved changing trains and means a minimum 1 and a half hour journey door to door. Given the terrible connection times and the infrequent services back to Dore and Totley I am back in the car for a 40 minute journey but would gladly go back to the train.

I had a conference in Salford Quays and found the journey time there comparable to my 15 trip to work!

I could jog from Dore & Totley to Carbrook (near Meadowhall) in the morning as quickly as returning by public transport!

 

[Killingworth]

Apparently the train crew on the 6 coach TPE 17.19 from Piccadilly for Cleethorpes were unable to operate SDO on Monday. Dore & Totley's platform currently takes 4 cars until Network Rail get their act together to extend to 6 as part of the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme. It can't come soon enough.

This time passengers carried through to Sheffield were able to catch a Northern stopping service back again to effectively delay them about 25 minutes. With a conductor/guard/train manager in both 185 units it was hard for regular users to understand why the stop could not be made as usual.

The service was already running late, but not as badly as on many days.

 

[BHXDMT]

This time passengers carried through to Sheffield were able to catch a Northern stopping service back again to effectively delay them about 25 minutes. With a conductor/guard/train manager in both 185 units it was hard for regular users to understand why the stop could not be made as usual.

The service was already running late, but not as badly as on many days.

The 2nd Conductor was stuck on a 20+ delayed inbound from Cleethorpes, so the service went without them. The service cannot stop at Dore without a 2nd Conductor because Network Rail say so. Automatic SDO will be installed eventually, so that will remove that particular problem but... it's quite delayed at present.

 

[Killingworth]

The 2nd Conductor was stuck on a 20+ delayed inbound from Cleethorpes, so the service went without them. The service cannot stop at Dore without a 2nd Conductor because Network Rail say so. Automatic SDO will be installed eventually, so that will remove that particular problem but... it's quite delayed at present.

So even though there was a guard in the rear unit where the doors have to be controlled there had to be another in the front unit where all 3 cars' doors can open safely?

Using units in multiple that can't be walked through is another part of this issue! However, the shortening of the Dore platform in 1985 is at the root of this local problem.

 

[BHXDMT]

So even though there was a guard in the rear unit where the doors have to be controlled there had to be another in the front unit where all 3 cars' doors can open safely?

Using units in multiple that can't be walked through is another part of this issue! However, the shortening of the Dore platform in 1985 is at the root of this local problem.

Well, it's largely irrelevant where the Conductors are located, there just has to be a 2nd one on board to lock the doors out. The train can be worked with both Conductors in rear set, or one Conductor in each, however if only one Conductor then they must be in the rear set and the train cannot call at Dore.

That's how Network Rail have stipulated TPE are to operate 6 car trains at Dore. As I say, automatic SDO can't come quickly enough to get rid of that problem!

 

[_toommm_]

I remember some points a while back about lost revenue on this line. Just on a train now and seen that wiring has been put in at Bamford for one of Northern's touchscreen ticket machines.

These loops are desperately needed, currently on the 08:53 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes and we're stuck behind a local stopped again. There's only 12 minutes gap between the Northern and the TransPennine, and on a lot of my journeys, that's just not enough.

 

[DanTrain]

I remember some points a while back about lost revenue on this line. Just on a train now and seen that wiring has been put in at Bamford for one of Northern's touchscreen ticket machines.

These loops are desperately needed, currently on the 08:53 Manchester Airport to Cleethorpes and we're stuck behind a local stopped again. There's only 12 minutes gap between the Northern and the TransPennine, and on a lot of my journeys, that's just not enough.

I would agree, the Eastbound timetable for that TPE doesn't work, it seems to get delayed more than half the time by the stopper due to the stopper running late. The problem is that I doubt there's any way to fix this easily without some loops, so as you say, the sooner the better...

 

[The Planner]

So the problem is with whatever is causing the stopper to be delayed, that isn't necessarily the problem of the timetable. If that stopper is on time, does the TPE keep time? The 07.53 and 09.53 seemed to be ok.

 

[DanTrain]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DOR/2018/08/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

This is the RTT for Dore yesterday evening, it shows the stopper late every hour (that the TPE stopped) in the evening except for 1, and the TPE managing to be late every hour. This is fairly typical I think, everything seems to run a few minutes late for no discernable reason - some delays seem to have originated from Manchester, others picked up in the Chinley area - not sure why.

 

[_toommm_]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/DOR/2018/08/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

This is the RTT for Dore yesterday evening, it shows the stopper late every hour (that the TPE stopped) in the evening except for 1, and the TPE managing to be late every hour. This is fairly typical I think, everything seems to run a few minutes late for no discernable reason - some delays seem to have originated from Manchester, others picked up in the Chinley area - not sure why.

What I often find is the stopper leaving late from Manchester whenever I've got it, which inevitably means it loses its path over Ardwick and it gets delayed further. As someone noted earlier, the period of good weather we've had meant more walkers and more cyclists = extended dwell times at stations. The only place the service could be looped is Earles Sidings, however I don't think drivers sign it, plus the train would have to cross the opposite line and I doubt they would be allowed in the Sidings anyway.

 

[Killingworth]

What I often find is the stopper leaving late from Manchester whenever I've got it, which inevitably means it loses its path over Ardwick and it gets delayed further. As someone noted earlier, the period of good weather we've had meant more walkers and more cyclists = extended dwell times at stations. The only place the service could be looped is Earles Sidings, however I don't think drivers sign it, plus the train would have to cross the opposite line and I doubt they would be allowed in the Sidings anyway.

There are disconnected old sidings both sides of the track west of both Edale and Grindleford. Too simple a solution, just a few points, new track and signalling? But even that would cost a lot and would be weather vulnerable in winter - and take years. Would it need a TWAO for restoring old track?

Making a loop at Hope and creating a third line through there, centre track bi-directional, to provide 1. passing options in both directions, 2. a Hope Valley hub station, 3. Ability to run services from Manchester and/or Sheffield without always having to run the through route. A pipe dream!

Don't blame the stoppers for all the delays. They often leave Sheffield on time and get held on the Heeley loop for the late running TPE from Cleethorpes. If it's on time a brisk walk is enough to get from one to the other. It's galling to be on a TPE from Doncaster that's on time approaching Meadowhall but loses 5 minutes waiting to get into Sheffield, by which time the stopper has left, then waits to let the TPE pass.

At present almost all services eastbound are delayed out of Piccadilly. Too many trains being funnelled through platforms 13 & 14 in particular, but that's the 15 & 16 thread.

 

[_toommm_]

There are disconnected old sidings both sides of the track west of both Edale and Grindleford. Too simple a solution, just a few points, new track and signalling? But even that would cost a lot and would be weather vulnerable in winter - and take years. Would it need a TWAO for restoring old track?

Making a loop at Hope and creating a third line through there, centre track bi-directional, to provide 1. passing options in both directions, 2. a Hope Valley hub station, 3. Ability to run services from Manchester and/or Sheffield without always having to run the through route. A pipe dream!

Don't blame the stoppers for all the delays. They often leave Sheffield on time and get held on the Heeley loop for the late running TPE from Cleethorpes. If it's on time a brisk walk is enough to get from one to the other. It's galling to be on a TPE from Doncaster that's on time approaching Meadowhall but loses 5 minutes waiting to get into Sheffield, by which time the stopper has left, then waits to let the TPE pass.

At present almost all services eastbound are delayed out of Piccadilly. Too many trains being funnelled through platforms 13 & 14 in particular, but that's the 15 & 16 thread.

The track has been out of use for a while, and with the amount of weeds growing around the tracks the sleepers may need to be replaced too. I use the TPE from Manchester to Sheffield and Doncaster at least 5 days a week (Its now my daily commute) and it's regularly slowed down just before Hathersage or Grindleford, even if there isn't a stopper in Front. Is there perhaps a temp speed restriction there?

 

[DanTrain]

The track has been out of use for a while, and with the amount of weeds growing around the tracks the sleepers may need to be replaced too. I use the TPE from Manchester to Sheffield and Doncaster at least 5 days a week (Its now my daily commute) and it's regularly slowed down just before Hathersage or Grindleford, even if there isn't a stopper in Front. Is there perhaps a temp speed restriction there?

Not that I've noticed (there's been one around Dore for yonks, not sure why). It might be to do with the tunnel, even a train quite a way ahead could cause cautionary signals approaching Grindleford?

 

[MarkyT]

Here's my latest idea for sorting out Dore. In conjunction with work already planned to lengthen the south chord and provide a second Hope Valley platform I propose an additional pair of crossovers just outside Totley Tunnel east portal with bidirectional working from there on both lines through the station. Together with the additional parallel crossover I show at the chord junction this would allow an EASTbound freight to switch tracks at fair speed on exit from the tunnel, and while proceeding to the south chord junction a westbound passenger train could weave around it as shown by the simultaneous signal routes set (in green) on my diagram. That way even if a train was too long for the chord and overhung the rear junction, the area would not be hopelessly blocked thereafter and all other trains could at least run, even if marginally delayed. An express overtaking a Dore station stopper in either direction would be possible and reversing back to Sheffield could occur in either platform.

Edit: Directional mistake! I meant an EASTbound freight exiting Totley tunnel and switching over to the westbound track while being weaved around by a westbound train, as indicated by the signal routes set.

 

[DanTrain]

Here's my latest idea for sorting out Dore. In conjunction with work already planned to lengthen the south chord and provide a second Hope Valley platform I propose an additional pair of crossovers just outside Totley Tunnel east portal with bidirectional working from there on both lines through the station. Together with the additional parallel crossover I show at the chord junction this would allow a westbound freight to switch tracks at fair speed on exit from the tunnel, and while proceeding to the south chord junction a westbound passenger train could weave around it as shown by the simultaneous signal routes set (in green) on my diagram. That way even if a train was too long for the chord and overhung the rear junction, the area would not be hopelessly blocked thereafter and all other trains could at least run, even if marginally delayed. An express overtaking a Dore station stopper in either direction would be possible and reversing back to Sheffield could occur in either platform.
View attachment 51415

I like the idea - how much it would actually be used in reality I don't know, but given the current timetable fits into one platform at Dore, there's no reason why having a fast overtake a slow, if nescessary, wouldn't work well!

 

[mwmbwls]

At some time in the recent past I seem to recall proposals to redouble the tracks at Dore which involved building a second platform. Is it still a proposed project or was it deleted when affordability was considered. Was there not also a proposed loop at Chinley?

 

[Killingworth]

At some time in the recent past I seem to recall proposals to redouble the tracks at Dore which involved building a second platform. Is it still a proposed project or was it deleted when affordability was considered. Was there not also a proposed loop at Chinley?

That is supposed to be happening as part of the Hope Valley Capacity Scheme, see earlier posts in this thread which include artists impressions of the new platform and a plan of the works. It should have been completed by next month but is delayed with a vague start date of 2019 given by Network Rail but they seem to be back peddling on that.

The Chinley loop was dropped after the first round of consultations when the idea of 4 fast trains an hour was seen to be impossible due to capacity constraints around Stockport.

 

[Tomnick]

There are disconnected old sidings both sides of the track west of both Edale and Grindleford. Too simple a solution, just a few points, new track and signalling? But even that would cost a lot and would be weather vulnerable in winter - and take years. Would it need a TWAO for restoring old track?

Making a loop at Hope and creating a third line through there, centre track bi-directional, to provide 1. passing options in both directions, 2. a Hope Valley hub station, 3. Ability to run services from Manchester and/or Sheffield without always having to run the through route. A pipe dream!

Don't blame the stoppers for all the delays. They often leave Sheffield on time and get held on the Heeley loop for the late running TPE from Cleethorpes. If it's on time a brisk walk is enough to get from one to the other. It's galling to be on a TPE from Doncaster that's on time approaching Meadowhall but loses 5 minutes waiting to get into Sheffield, by which time the stopper has left, then waits to let the TPE pass.

At present almost all services eastbound are delayed out of Piccadilly. Too many trains being funnelled through platforms 13 & 14 in particular, but that's the 15 & 16 thread.

The disconnected single-ended refuge sidings at Grindleford and Edale would be no use in their previous form. The work to provide (short) loops in their place would be far from trivial, so in that respect a single pair of loops at Bamford would provide a more cost-effective way of achieving the same thing.

The loop at Earles is no good for passenger trains - maybe one that’ll be sorted with resignalling?

It’s true, though, that a lot of the problems over there have their origins in the current Manchester chaos. Trains are delayed approaching the Hope Valley far too often, and it just compounds things. It’s far worse over the CLC between Liverpool and Manchester though!

Not that I've noticed (there's been one around Dore for yonks, not sure why). It might be to do with the tunnel, even a train quite a way ahead could cause cautionary signals approaching Grindleford?

There’s a long-standing 65mph TSR just past Hathersage towards Grindleford (in connection with the foot crossing around the curve), but the permissible speed for 185s is only 70mph there anyway (you’d notice it more on 15x traction, where the permissible speed is 90mph reducing to 75mph). You might catch Grindleford’s distant if there’s still one in, or just leaving, the tunnel though.

There was a 20mph ESR at Dore but it was soon eased to linespeed (50mph) for passenger trains and removed altogether not long after.

 

[DanTrain]

There was a 20mph ESR at Dore but it was soon eased to linespeed (50mph) for passenger trains and removed altogether not long after.

Oh, my mistake, I could have sworn there were still some TSR signs aroubd, but I agree trains do seem to be going at line speed now .

There’s a long-standing 65mph TSR just past Hathersage towards Grindleford (in connection with the foot crossing around the curve), but the permissible speed for 185s is only 70mph there anyway (you’d notice it more on 15x traction, where the permissible speed is 90mph reducing to 75mph). You might catch Grindleford’s distant if there’s still one in, or just leaving, the tunnel though.

Frankly that crossing is bad enough at 65, the sooner they're gone the better!

 

[_toommm_]

The disconnected single-ended refuge sidings at Grindleford and Edale would be no use in their previous form. The work to provide (short) loops in their place would be far from trivial, so in that respect a single pair of loops at Bamford would provide a more cost-effective way of achieving the same thing.

The loop at Earles is no good for passenger trains - maybe one that’ll be sorted with resignalling?

It’s true, though, that a lot of the problems over there have their origins in the current Manchester chaos. Trains are delayed approaching the Hope Valley far too often, and it just compounds things. It’s far worse over the CLC between Liverpool and Manchester though!


There’s a long-standing 65mph TSR just past Hathersage towards Grindleford (in connection with the foot crossing around the curve), but the permissible speed for 185s is only 70mph there anyway (you’d notice it more on 15x traction, where the permissible speed is 90mph reducing to 75mph). You might catch Grindleford’s distant if there’s still one in, or just leaving, the tunnel though.

There was a 20mph ESR at Dore but it was soon eased to linespeed (50mph) for passenger trains and removed altogether not long after.

It's much much slower than that, the only thing I can think is the train is running on cautionary aspects. I can only remember once or twice when we haven't slowed down considerably on the left hander.