Honest Mistake

[THat7ftguy]

I'm 17, i was travelling from heaton chapel to picadilly, and at the time it ocured to me that i could use my system one pass on any bus, train or tram in greater manchester, as this is what it advertised, so I use it on the train for the first time only to get stopped at picadilly saying i can't use it it is only valid for buses, and i was adamant that he was incorrect until he showed me the small print on the rear saying it is only valid for buses and now i have received a fine for something i never will have done had i known you couldn't use it for trains as i am well aware of fines for not paying, what should i do?

 

[jon0844]

Pay it? If it was written on your pass, surely you could have seen whatever the revenue guy could.

If it was an honest mistake, just put it down as experience and move on.

 

[THat7ftguy]

Who actually takes the time to read the small print on the back of their travel passes though? And it's not so easy to say that when your family is struggling with money.

 

[DarloRich]

Ignorance is no defence, especially if it was in the small print - sorry. Pay up and chalk it up to experience.

 

[cuccir]

Who actually takes the time to read the small print on the back of their travel passes though? And it's not so easy to say that when your family is struggling with money.

Exactly what ticket do you have? What does it say on the front of it? There are different System One passes, some of which can be used on trains but others can't.

How much have you been asked to pay, and by who? A 'fine' technically refers to a fee imposed by a court, but I presume that this is some sort of penalty fare that you've been asked to pay?

It's not easy, no, but presuming that the penalty fare is legitimate (and if it says buses only on your ticket then I presume that it is!), then paying now is the best option: if you don't pay, then whoever has asked you pay is likely to either demand more money, or try to prosecute you in court for travelling without a valid ticket.

If you can't pay, contact the people who have asked you to pay - you may be able to arrange to pay in installments over a period of months.

 

[maniacmartin]

On the System One website, you can see for each time period (click the time period), there are lots of different options available for purchase. Some are bus only, whilst the more expensive ones also allow train travel.

 

[scrapy]

and i was adamant that he was incorrect until he showed me the small print on the rear saying it is only valid for buses ?

Not only will it say in the small print on the rear but it would also have the words 'ADULT BUS SAVER' or 'YOUNG PERSONS BUS SAVER' on the front, (which kind of suggests it's a bus only ticket) in quite large print. Out of interest where did you buy it and what did you ask for?
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Who actually takes the time to read the small print on the back of their travel passes though? And it's not so easy to say that when your family is struggling with money.

I would suggest if money is tight you read the small print on any contract you enter into as it may save you a lot of money in the long run.

 

[maniacmartin]

If money is tight, settle it ASAP and don't let it go to court, where the penalties are likely to be much more.

 

[northwichcat]

I don't know if anyone else knows otherwise but I was under the impression Northern only issue fines on certain lines where 'failure to purchase' notices are displayed, which include lines like the Glossop and Caldervale line. While Northern are planning to add more lines to the scheme next year I'm under the impression Heaton Chapel comes under the "Northern Rail is planning to roll out the
scheme further as detailed below: ...Alderley Edge to Mcr Picc via Cheadle Hulme from 2 March 2014;"

If that is the case shouldn't the RPI have asked for the full undiscounted fare for the journey made opposed to issuing a fine as described in the OP?

 

[maniacmartin]

I am presuming the 'fine' that is referred to here is one of Northern's 80 GBP "Fixed Penalty Notices".

An RPI can report a passenger - there is no difference in waiting until 2 March 2014 as the whole Northern FPN scheme has no licenses, approval or oversight in the first place

 

[northwichcat]

I am presuming the 'fine' that is referred to here is one of Northern's 80 GBP "Fixed Penalty Notices".

An RPI can report a passenger - there is no difference in waiting until 2 March 2014 as the whole Northern FPN scheme has no licenses, approval or oversight in the first place

I agree but if there is no notice at Heaton Chapel about the Northern FPN scheme then doesn't make an £80 fine illegal opposed to saying it "isn't an official approved penalty fare scheme"?

If the 'fine' is actually what Northern are proposing as an out-of-court settlement to prevent the passenger going to court for fare evasion then it's a different matter.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Northern scheme has been discussed at length in other threads, so I don't want to repeat what was said there, but basically the letter is designed to be scary and look official, but with no legislation backing it, it is essentially an out of court settlement, although Northern themselves don't use that terminology.

I still don't see how putting notices up makes any difference to the legality. It's not a fine, hence the 'Fixed Penalty Notice' phrase that was invented. A passenger can of course refuse to pay and let Northern take them to court instead, but if it's a slam dunk case, they would almost certainly end up with a real fine (of much more than 80.00), and, for serious cases prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act as opposed to the Railway Byelaws, a criminal record. Whether this scheme is moral or not is debatable - I personally think Northern are basically bypassing Penalty Fare legislation by inventing their own instead, but the DfT and Passenger Focus don't seem all that bothered.

I suspect Northern prefer the FPN route in most cases as they don't have to spend time going to court or hiring legal representatives, and they get to keep the 80.00, whereas a court-imposed fine would go to the government.

 

[Greenback]

I still don't see how putting notices up makes any difference to the legality.

It doesn't.

I suspect Northern prefer the FPN route in most cases as they don't have to spend time going to court or hiring legal representatives, and they get to keep the 80.00, whereas a court-imposed fine would go to the government.

I agree. It is also far better for Northern to do this than to set up a PF scheme with all the hassle that involves for a lesser monetary return.

 

[185]

The plastic wallets issued do say "On Any Train Bus OR Tram in Manchester"

The actual tickets in them say "Only valid on buses"

It is somewhat obvious, however it doesn't help when some fool at TfGM completely confuses the passengers with something as basic as that.

Except for the Off-Peak Travelcard, TfGM's System One have no tickets that are valid on all three, and this is a perfect example of someone sat behind a desk, not thinking of the consequences of his nice design being used out in the real world.

 

[jon0844]

If a ticket wallet says that then that does perhaps change things... assuming said ticket was in that wallet and that wallet had been provided with that ticket (or the same type of ticket) beforehand.

At the very least there should be an * on the text to state there are different versions of the ticket with different restrictions.

I must admit that if I saw something like that, I'd be less inclined to read any more text on the rear of the ticket.

 

[northwichcat]

I remember once getting issued with a new Young Person's railcard in a Metrocard wallet. Although, in that case it was more obvious any thing printed on the wallet didn't apply to what was inside it.