Holyrood debate on Edinburgh-Perth rail link

[overthewater]

http://www.dunfermlinepress.com/new...-holyrood-debate-on-edinburghperth-rail-link/

A DEBATE on reopening a direct Edinburgh-Perth rail link will take place in the Scottish Parliament on Tuesday 9th October.

Mid-Scotland and Fife MSP Liz Smith has secured a Members' Debate on the matter, which she says has received support from local residents, the Greens and Lib Dems.
The direct rail link is expected to stop at Inverkeithing and Halbeath. Commuters using current Edinburgh-Perth services either have to change at Stirling or take circuitous route through Fife.
Ms Smith said, "The response from local residents has been excellent with hundreds of people returning the local petition card, emailing and writing into my local office and joining the campaign for a direct rail link between Perth and Edinburgh Facebook group.

"I hope the debate will allow MSPs not only to debate the issue but also all the political parties to put on public record if they support investing in Perthshire, Kinross-shire and Fife transport architecture.

Does anyone know which committe it is?

 

[Eagle]

Presumably this would be something like the old route via Kinross (which branched from the Fife Circle just north of Cowdenbeath).

Halbeath I assume is a new station in Dunfermline. No word on whether Kinross or Kelty get stations.

 

[overthewater]

Presumably this would be something like the old route via Kinross (which branched from the Fife Circle just north of Cowdenbeath).

Halbeath I assume is a new station in Dunfermline. No word on whether Kinross or Kelty get stations.

Halbeath is the new Halbeath Park and Ride which opens in November. Its right next to the Train line, and was suppose to have a station built.

The P&R is good couple of mins away from the village and is on the other side of a motorway

Is a map around of the old line?

 

[Eagle]

Its right next to the Train line, and was suppose to have a station built.

Wouldn't that be incredibly close to Queen Margaret station?

 

[Liam]

Never going to happen.

The old line through Glenfarg is now the M90. It's really the only route through the glen. Some cracking fully accessible tunnels just North of Glenfarg though.

 

[overthewater]

Wouldn't that be incredibly close to Queen Margaret station?

Maybe!

http://admin.1fife.org.uk/uploadfil...em20-HalbeathPlanW11DU007(CPO_CarPark)(1).pdf

 

[Eagle]

Maybe!

http://admin.1fife.org.uk/uploadfil...em20-HalbeathPlanW11DU007(CPO_CarPark)(1).pdf

Not sure why it needs a rail station to be honest, there are plenty of completely empty Stagecoach buses running from Halbeath to Edinburgh and all parts of Fife that people can use instead. :P

 

[overthewater]

Not sure why it needs a rail station to be honest, there are plenty of completely empty Stagecoach buses running from Halbeath to Edinburgh and all parts of Fife that people can use instead. :P

If only!

 

[tbtc]

Edinburgh to Perth has never had a better service than it currently gets (basically hourly), so seems an odd time to propose such a link. Given that it wouldn't serve anywhere that big en route (no Kirkcaldy or Dunfermline), would it be that much quicker than the current service via Ladybank?

Wasn't there a plan a few years ago to speed up the Edinburgh - Dundee/Aberdeen services by opening a section of line from the Inverkeithing area to Halbeath (i.e. running longer distance services through Cowdenbeath and Thornton Yard, avoiding the curves around the coast towards Kirkcaldy)?

 

[Tobbes]

tbtc,

A spectacular piece of railway that should never have been closed, as ever.It would be considerably shorter (15 miles+ IIRC), and was designed as an express route (it was quite straight, though it had a section at 1-in-72/75). This picture shows the problem, and suggests a potential TBM based solution.

Electrified, a relaid Glenfarg route would reduce the Waverley to Perth journey time from 75 mins to 40 (see this Transport Scotland report).

But with a BCR <0.75 and costs of £0.5 - £1.0bn, I don't see it happening, sadly. (Unless of course, you rebuilt it as HS2 Phase 4, using Classic Compatibles to reach Perth in 40 mins from Edinburgh, and then using a relaid and straightened Forfar line to access Aberdeen, with additional savings for a dualled and electrified Highland Main Line to Inverness....)

Tobbes

 

[YorkshireBear]

Could you not put an express via stirling in? Just run it limited stop? Seems fairly direct to me. (i could of course be hugely wrong...)

 

[ian1944]

A pan/zoom old 1" OS map can be found here: http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/

Select Historical OS Maps/Seventh Series/Create Overlay to compare with the current layout (there's a slider to vary the opacity, ie the amount of the current map which shows).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Could you not put an express via stirling in? Just run it limited stop? Seems fairly direct to me. (i could of course be hugely wrong...)

I was on a Edinburgh-Perth service that was diverted fast via Stirling once (the line via Ladybank was down with signalling problems) and I seem to recall it was no different to running via Fife with a couple of stops - perhaps 5 min faster, if that.

Edit - 10,000th post. God that's depressing.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

tbtc,

But with a BCR <0.75 and costs of £0.5 - £1.0bn, I don't see it happening, sadly. (Unless of course, you rebuilt it as HS2 Phase 4, using Classic Compatibles to reach Perth in 40 mins from Edinburgh, and then using a relaid and straightened Forfar line to access Aberdeen, with additional savings for a dualled and electrified Highland Main Line to Inverness....)

HS2 Phase 4...well that puts the project on "the back boiler" for years to come.

 

[Altnabreac]

tbtc,

A spectacular piece of railway that should never have been closed, as ever.It would be considerably shorter (15 miles+ IIRC), and was designed as an express route (it was quite straight, though it had a section at 1-in-72/75). This picture shows the problem, and suggests a potential TBM based solution.

Electrified, a relaid Glenfarg route would reduce the Waverley to Perth journey time from 75 mins to 40 (see this Transport Scotland report).

But with a BCR <0.75 and costs of £0.5 - £1.0bn, I don't see it happening, sadly. (Unless of course, you rebuilt it as HS2 Phase 4, using Classic Compatibles to reach Perth in 40 mins from Edinburgh, and then using a relaid and straightened Forfar line to access Aberdeen, with additional savings for a dualled and electrified Highland Main Line to Inverness....)

Tobbes

I could see a new line Inverkeithing, Halbeath, Bridge of Earn with a spur going over the Tay and joining the Dundee line directly at St Madoes as being the perfect second phase of a Scottish High Speed Rail network.

It would cost more than just a new Perth line but the benefits would be much greater as it would speed up Edinburgh to Dundee and Aberdeen journey times too.

With a chord onto an Edinburgh - Glasgow high speed line near Gogar it could also speed Aberdeen - Dundee - Glasgow traffic too.

At the moment Inverkeithing to Halbeath is listed in the Strategic Transport Projects Review as a key improvement to be implemented by 2030 but I don't think any design work is even planned to start in CP5 so its very much at the back of the queue.

 

[Tobbes]

I could see a new line Inverkeithing, Halbeath, Bridge of Earn with a spur going over the Tay and joining the Dundee line directly at St Madoes as being the perfect second phase of a Scottish High Speed Rail network.

It would cost more than just a new Perth line but the benefits would be much greater as it would speed up Edinburgh to Dundee and Aberdeen journey times too.

With a chord onto an Edinburgh - Glasgow high speed line near Gogar it could also speed Aberdeen - Dundee - Glasgow traffic too.

Agreed, a true HSR on this route (rather than a slavish reopening along the Glenfarg line) would have very substantial benefits to Scotland's third and fourth largest population centres - Dunfermline is 11th and Perth 13th.

It would be interesting to see what sort of route distance this would be, and therefore what time savings would be available.

Tobbes

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Liz Smith may well have secured a Members Debate and have the support of a goodly number of local residents, but in the cold light of day, many similar projects to this could be put forward in the same way, but this is no guarantee of project success, as other Members will then wish their own areas to be considered for railway enhancements.

The Borders Railway project is currently in progress and I will be interested to see what, if any, future new national railway projects are planned for Scotland. The not insignificant matter of the independence debate will surely have much to say Dependant upon the result of that referendum.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

The not insignificant matter of the devolution debate will surely have much to say Dependant upon the result of that referendum.

Sorry to be a bore and a pedant (again), Paul, but shouldn't that be the
independance debate?

An easy (and oft occurring) slip. No matter.

 

[Railsigns]

Sorry to be a bore and a pedant (again), Paul, but shouldn't that be the
independance debate?

I think it should be the independence debate. :roll:

 

[PaxVobiscum]

I think it should be the independence debate. :roll:

Indeed it should - though in the unlikely event of a "yes" vote, our Alex will be (probably the only one) dancing. And not a pretty sight.

PS: Why does posting on these forums cause glacial running on an otherwise reliable tablet? I would normally preview to check for typos but I wanted it to appear on the forum before the vote.

 

[HowardGWR]

I think it should be the independence debate. :roll:

A good way of remembering is this - :

"One would want one's dependants to become independent and then they would no longer be dependent on one's care". Hope that helps.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

A good way of remembering is this - :

"One would want one's dependants to become independent and then they would no longer be dependent on one's care". Hope that helps.

Thanks awfully for that, but I just hit the wrong błõødŷ key!!

 

[jeemac]

tbtc,

A spectacular piece of railway that should never have been closed, as ever.It would be considerably shorter (15 miles+ IIRC), and was designed as an express route (it was quite straight, though it had a section at 1-in-72/75). This picture shows the problem, and suggests a potential TBM based solution.

Electrified, a relaid Glenfarg route would reduce the Waverley to Perth journey time from 75 mins to 40 (see this Transport Scotland report).

But with a BCR <0.75 and costs of £0.5 - £1.0bn, I don't see it happening, sadly. (Unless of course, you rebuilt it as HS2 Phase 4, using Classic Compatibles to reach Perth in 40 mins from Edinburgh, and then using a relaid and straightened Forfar line to access Aberdeen, with additional savings for a dualled and electrified Highland Main Line to Inverness....)

Tobbes

For what it's worth, I think re-opening this line should be the next big aspirational project for rail in Scotland. I agree with Tobbes, it was incredibly short-sighted that this line was closed and the track bed breached in the early 1970s - but apart from the section of about 3km through Glenfarg, and some developments to the West of Kinross, the majority of the route is still there - including the tunnels. I read somewhere that the fastest Edinburgh - Perth service is now 3 minutes slower than the fastest journey time in 1913, and while that may or may not be strictly correct, it is a fair reflection of the poor service that Perth has to Edinburgh and points South via the ECML, not to mention through services from the Highlands.
Something else that needs to be considered is the condition and design life of the Tay Bridge - it's bound to need significant work at some point in the future, and Edinburgh - Dundee/Aberdeen diversions currently have to be via Newburgh (single track with no passing loops) or Stirling - neither of which is convenient for passengers.

 

[railjock]

I can't see the re-instatement of this line ever being viable.

 

[Class83]

Reopening this line wouldn't result in any particular improvement in journey times for the Dunfermline/Rosyth/Inverkeithing area so the only real beneficiary would be Perth.

Improvements to the current line through Fife should be possible as the only real geographical constraint on the existing line is the route it takes through Burntisland. However, Linespeeds between Dalmeny and somewhere around Kirkcaldy are <75mph. Between Ladybank and Perth the line is single track and again <75mph, though it's reasonably straight and through open countryside, so presumably linespeed increases and some doubling should be possible.

Current timings are roughly 1h15m so increasing the linespeed to 100mph (excluding a short section through Burntisland and presumably the Forth Bridge) would hopefully allow journey times to be reduced to 1h. Also this route would allow trains to stop at Inverkeithing (Dunfermline), Kirkcaldy and Markinch (Glenrothes) as well as Perth.

 

[NotATrainspott]

If it's ever going to be built enough of it will be in tunnel bores that it might as well be an HSR. The current Edinburgh-Glasgow HSR proposal and its feasibility hinges on the fact that it won't require any sort of complicated engineering as it's simply a new route over open country designed for (presumably) 250-300kph running. This link would cost far more and wouldn't deliver much in the way of benefits if you don't then extend it all the way to Aberdeen, which will only happen if we get a government genuinely hell-bent on destroying the domestic air market.

A much more practical method of delivering some of the benefits would be electrification of the existing route so the Fife Circle services wouldn't slow down the regional ones as much. Since after EGIP there aren't many other routes needing done in the short term it's pretty much guaranteed to happen in the 2020s. By the time we have HS2 stage 2 built we'll probably have wired up to Aberdeen and Inverness so they might get a CC service or two a day.

 

[edwin_m]

However, Linespeeds between Dalmeny and somewhere around Kirkcaldy are <75mph.

BR looked at the speed profile on this section when the HSTs came in, so I suspect any reasonably easy increases would have already been done.

Besides Burntisland, there are several other reasons for low speeds on this section that would be extremely difficult to solve. The curves round Inverkeithing and the kink in Kinghorn Tunnel spring to mind, and there is also a fairly tight curve near Aberdour. There may also be subsidence issues from the many former collieries in Fife.

The distribution of these obstacles along the line mean that trains can't get up much speed before having to brake for the next one, although electrification might help a little.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Besides Burntisland, there are several other reasons for low speeds on this section that would be extremely difficult to solve. The curves round Inverkeithing and the kink in Kinghorn Tunnel spring to mind, and there is also a fairly tight curve near Aberdour. There may also be subsidence issues from the many former collieries in Fife.

The distribution of these obstacles along the line mean that trains can't get up much speed before having to brake for the next one, although electrification might help a little.

A well-made posting that shows the possible problems. I have highlighted the possibility of mining subsidence.

 

[overthewater]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/BusinessBulletin/68598.aspx

I cant found anything about this, did it go ahead?

 

[clc]

http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/parliamentarybusiness/BusinessBulletin/68598.aspx

I cant found anything about this, did it go ahead?

Doesn't look like it. The big announcement about Prestwick Airport being nationalised may have pushed it out.