"hold" versus "show" a ticket

[WolvertonWorks]

I was on a SWT from Waterloo yesterday going to Hook.

There was a very clear announcement when we reached the station that was the edge of the contactless zone that one must hold a valid ticket for the journey to continue further or risk a penalty fare or prosecution.

That got me thinking - "hold" was an appropriate word when all tickets were physical and one could literally hold them in ones hands but now many people have tickets on their phones do they actually "hold" a ticket? I thought I must be able to "show" a valid ticket when required not "hold" a valid ticket which I may not be able to "show".


Spotted two very visible - one must have been well over 6 foot - RPIs on the platform at I think it was Woking - a while later it transpired they'd got onto the train I was on as they came through checking tickets.

 

[AlterEgo]

That got me thinking - "hold" was an appropriate word when all tickets were physical and one could literally hold them in ones hands but now many people have tickets on their phones do they actually "hold" a ticket?

It’s the same usage of hold as to hold a reservation. Doesn’t imply a physical thing you hold or that you have to carry it in your hand, but rather that you have control of it.

I thought I must be able to "show" a valid ticket when required

In the context of some railway law, and penalty fares yes.

not "hold" a valid ticket which I may not be able to "show".

You legally must also hold a valid ticket before boarding, Bylaw 18 offence if you don’t “have it with you”. No reference to showing it.

 

[island]

That got me thinking - "hold" was an appropriate word when all tickets were physical and one could literally hold them in ones hands but now many people have tickets on their phones do they actually "hold" a ticket? I thought I must be able to "show" a valid ticket when required not "hold" a valid ticket which I may not be able to "show".

I politely suggest that you are overthinking things.

 

[Adam Williams]

now many people have tickets on their phones do they actually "hold" a ticket?

The ticket will be represented by trapped electrons within the NAND flash circuitry, and these do have mass - so surely the ticket can be "held".

 

[styles]

In all honesty, the law is not (and cannot be) that precise.

While there is plenty of established case law making determinations on the definitions of words (the definition of 'driving' a motor vehicle being an interesting example), an operator isn't going to convince a magistrate that an m-ticket isn't allowed because it's not 'held' (and even then, arguably holding a phone displaying a valid m-ticket is 'holding' it).

A person can 'hold' values, or 'hold' a bottle of milk, or 'hold' a mobile ticket.

In most cases this is mute, because a prosecution can in any case be brought given:

Every passenger by a railway shall, on request by an officer or servant of a railway company, either produce, and if so requested deliver up, a ticket showing that his fare is paid ...

 

[6Gman]

In all honesty, the law is not (and cannot be) that precise.

While there is plenty of established case law making determinations on the definitions of words (the definition of 'driving' a motor vehicle being an interesting example), an operator isn't going to convince a magistrate that an m-ticket isn't allowed because it's not 'held' (and even then, arguably holding a phone displaying a valid m-ticket is 'holding' it).

A person can 'hold' values, or 'hold' a bottle of milk, or 'hold' a mobile ticket.

In most cases this is mute, because a prosecution can in any case be brought given:

Mute or moot?

 

[35B]

Mute or moot?

Moot

 

[styles]

Mute or moot?

Moot.

Like the big camps.