HLOS for CP6 (2019-24)

[northwichcat]

It'd be nice if the western link to Manchester Airport is included (which Network Rail said they will examine again in CP6.) That would allow Chester to the Airport in around 50 minutes (and consequently much faster times from North Wales & The Wirral), as well as the option for running a service from the Airport to Liverpool via Runcorn, without requiring any more Piccadilly-Airport paths.

 

[HSTEd]

I very much doubt that there will be any work that has not been already announced.
And I expect the indefinite postponement of various projects to be pushed forward into CP7.

There will be no 'completion' of the original GWML electrification plan, after all there is no reason to proceed now that no all-electric trains will be lying idle as a result of the delays.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I very much doubt that there will be any work that has not been already announced.
And I expect the indefinite postponement of various projects to be pushed forward into CP7.

There will be no 'completion' of the original GWML electrification plan, after all there is no reason to proceed now that no all-electric trains will be lying idle as a result of the delays.

Except Oxford and 387s.
And 319s standing idle in the NW for lack of wires (Stalybridge, Wigan, Windermere).
The Scottish wiring has to complete too, or 385s will be idle.

 

[Chester1]

I very much doubt that there will be any work that has not been already announced.
And I expect the indefinite postponement of various projects to be pushed forward into CP7.

There will be no 'completion' of the original GWML electrification plan, after all there is no reason to proceed now that no all-electric trains will be lying idle as a result of the delays.

The delayed CP5 projects *should* be completed during CP6. Transpennine electrification in 2022 and MML by 2023. There is sufficient buffer for further delays to not push projects into CP7. Windermere is a small project that could be done at the end of CP6 and Selby to Hull has effectively been cancelled so probably won't be scheduled for CP7.

Manchester Airport Western Approach depends on what Rail North, Greater Manchester Combined Authority etc decide they want “Northern Powerhouse Rail” to be.

 

[Class 170101]

Manchester Airport Western Approach depends on what Rail North, Greater Manchester Combined Authority etc decide they want “Northern Powerhouse Rail” to be.

And prepared to pay for.

 

[Chester1]

And prepared to pay for.

They could potentially fund a project costing several billion especially if it was part funded by central government using a Crossrail style model. Greater Manchester Combined Authority will soon have a £1bn a year of devolution funding for economic, business and development spending and the government is still (post Osborne) willing to devolve more funding and powers. I think the Metrolink extensions were funded on the basis that profits would pay off the loans to build them in aproximately 20 years. Whether is a project that matches these criteria is a different matter. Either way the western approach project will not be in the HLOS for CP6.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its £900m over 30 years, not £1bn per year :P

 

[Chester1]

Its £900m over 30 years, not £1bn per year :P

Wasn't that just the amount added in the 4th devolution deal last year?

 

[WatcherZero]

Yeah pretty much all the Combined Authorities got the same deal, £900m over 30 years or £30m a year, couple of exceptions Birminghams was slightly larger, £1.1bn while Tees Valley and Lincolnshire was slightly smaller, £450m.

No Idea where you've got £1bn per year from. The first devo deal had the ability to raise business rates, that was about £800m over 30 years but they've since devolved that to every council anyway. The second deal devolved bus subsidy (Bus Service Operator Grant and National travel concession scheme) that was about £100m per year but not new money as still has to pay for the existing programs.

 

[HSTEd]

Is the Lincolnshire devolution deal actually going forward?
Oh god, thats the last thing South Kesteven needs, more county-level bureaucrats stealing our resources and dumping them into the Lincoln area.

 

[WatcherZero]

No Lincolnshire CC voted against it last October 2:1, but the deal had been negotiated at the time.
Then in Feb Lincolnshire CC tried to organise a public referendum across the 8 districts on whether to create a CA to be held on May 4th but the other councils opposed the idea.
Linc are still pushing a public consultation on the idea, Previous consultation had 49% of residents opposing a Mayor but 59% supporting alternative further integration.

 

[The Ham]

One thing that would be good if it was confirmed for CP6 would be the western approach to Heathrow.

 

[Olaf]

I think "Electrification" is now last season's fashion.

Emphasis will be on capacity, HS2, Digital Railway, right-time railway, improvements to productivity.

 

[northwichcat]

I think "Electrification" is now last season's fashion.

Emphasis will be on capacity, HS2, Digital Railway, right-time railway, improvements to productivity.

But it's current fashion to scrap old diesel engines, so current fashion would also be to replace the Sprinters with something greener.

 

[Class 170101]

But it's current fashion to scrap old diesel engines, so current fashion would also be to replace the Sprinters with something greener.

I know. How about Electric Trains? Now there is a novel idea.

 

[A Challenge]

I know. How about Electric Trains? Now there is a novel idea.

And they will leave Manchester Piccadilly on their service to Buxton, runs nicely to Hazel Grove, and then runs off the wires at the Hope Valley Line junction...

 

[Class 170101]

Electrification is still the way to go despite what the politicans say about bi-mode trains.

 

[clc]

Has the publication date of the HLOS been announced?

 

[Olaf]

But it's current fashion to scrap old diesel engines, so current fashion would also be to replace the Sprinters with something greener.

Only in areas of high pollution, at best.

To do that on the railways, the Government would be depending on a Domain Specialist that has STILL not got on top of the delivery of existing plans.

Electrification is more expensive than NR would have us believe at the start of CP5, and it does not have the wherewithal to address the issues. As far as the Treasury (the paymasters) that is an unforgivable sin.

Every electrification project, no matter how small, will be going through a more stringent analysis on costs, benefits, and delivery. Not all of the delayed work will get through that process, and the project will come second to providing for customers needs rather than those of the Engineers, which is what the Electrification program has become.

 

[WatcherZero]

Has the publication date of the HLOS been announced?

Likely to be on the later side because of Purdah.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

There's not much point in debating the various wishlists here: recall that NR has no money and, given the election timetable, even if HMG were inclined to change that (and that is an if given NR's reputation for project overruns), it's highly unlikely that Whitehall would sign off any new commitments between the start of the next government (June 8th) and the HLOS date (early July at the latest). So, IMHO 10 pages of beautiful but non specific prose is where we are headed....

 

[47802]

There's not much point in debating the various wishlists here: recall that NR has no money and, given the election timetable, even if HMG were inclined to change that (and that is an if given NR's reputation for project overruns), it's highly unlikely that Whitehall would sign off any new commitments between the start of the next government (June 8th) and the HLOS date (early July at the latest). So, IMHO 10 pages of beautiful but non specific prose is where we are headed....

Well Indeed I think we might be lucky to get Great Western Electrification to Oxford and Bristol finished and not much else, apart maybe finding the money to Upgrade the Power Supply North of Newcastle on the East Coast. When I saw the bit about TPE 802 having to run on Diesel North of Newcastle and Virgin keeping HST's until 2020 I thought it was some kind of joke, but as it seems to be coming from reputable sources what can you say.

 

[clc]

Likely to be on the later side because of Purdah.

Thanks.

 

[Class 170101]

apart maybe finding the money to Upgrade the Power Supply North of Newcastle on the East Coast. When I saw the bit about TPE 802 having to run on Diesel North of Newcastle and Virgin keeping HST's until 2020 I thought it was some kind of joke, but as it seems to be coming from reputable sources what can you say.

Whats all this about? Can you enlighten us any further?

 

[snowball]

Whats all this about? Can you enlighten us any further?

See post #4139 and following discussion in the Class 800 thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100841&page=276

 

[47802]

Its also been quoted by Tony Miles on WNXX saying TPE have been told they will have to run on Diesel north of Newcastle, as well as Virgin life extending HST's. But frankly I would have thought the money would be found to sort this out otherwise its going to be very embarrassing.

There is also not much point in my eyes in extending electrification if we cannot fully utilise our existing wires.

My own view is that the next control period, should make sure the East Coast Mainline is Sorted, Make sure GWR electrification is completed to Oxford and Bristol, Cancel MML electrification, Prioritise TPE electrification with its shorter route mileage and Cardiff Valleys Electrification. If the Valleys goes light rail then maybe look for another smaller scheme.

 

[northwichcat]

Only in areas of high pollution, at best.

The majority of Sprinter routes serve cities with high pollution. Only Birmingham has been fortunate enough to replace most of it's Sprinters with newer trains.

 

[Class 170101]

See post #4139 and following discussion in the Class 800 thread:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100841&page=276

Thanks for this.

Goes to bang head against brick wall!

 

[Kneedown]

Cancel MML electrification

On the contrary, press on with the MML. That lays the bedrock to expand in future control periods to branch out and link up the electrified network in all directions across the country.
Sadly, the HST's must be replaced soon so it makes sense to continue.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

On the contrary, press on with the MML. That lays the bedrock to expand in future control periods to branch out and link up the electrified network in all directions across the country.
Sadly, the HST's must be replaced soon so it makes sense to continue.

10/10 hear hear - totally agree