Hitchin flyover open

[D1009]

As far as I know it has always been the intention that once all the drivers sign the flyover it will become the normal route towards Letchworth for all northbound services. The additional minute journey time is considered a small price to pay for the benefit to performance and additional capacity that the flyover creates.

 

[Tomnick]

Should be the other way round. This pushes the responsibility (and delay mins) onto the driver rather than the signaller

I'd guess that the signalman would pick up the delay minutes anyway if he pulled off for one over the flyover without confirming the driver's route knowledge, whether that was to be done by the driver contacting the box or vice-versa.

 

[swt_passenger]

unless my calculations are way off, for it to be used by ~600 trains a week would require the Express services? There's 72 (unless I miscount) KGX-CBG trains on weekdays and I make it 25 Letworth and Royston terminators. So weekdays that's 97 trains in service accessing the branch- 485 total. There's less trains each day at the weekends.
So either the ~600 is wrong and it'll be about 2/3 of that number, or the drivers are wrong and the Express services are going up and over.

I drew the same conclusion in post #35, on the basis that 600 per week must be getting towards the whole timetable...

 

[ffm]

Should be the other way round. This pushes the responsibility (and delay mins) onto the driver rather than the signaller

A preposterous suggestion. Why should a driver not be responsible for informing the signaller that they don't have the required route knowledge? They have responsibility for their own actions and are the only one, of the two people in this interaction, who KNOW the answer. Would you suggest a driver takes their train onto routes they haven't signed, just because the signals were green? Anymore than they should, or would, continue onto a diverging line if the signals indicated so, when they knew their route could not be run that way? Or pass a signal to a non-electrified line in an electric train, they knew that line had no catenary but "the signaller had set the route, so it was nothing to do with me"? None of that is either sensible, logical, or acceptable. Drivers are professionals and must use their skills, experience and knowledge, their competence. This includes communicating with others and not simply playing a 'not my job governor' part. You do them a great disservice by the ludicrous point you try to make.

 

[t0ffeeman]

A preposterous suggestion. Why should a driver not be responsible for informing the signaller that they don't have the required route knowledge? They have responsibility for their own actions and are the only one, of the two people in this interaction, who KNOW the answer. Would you suggest a driver takes their train onto routes they haven't signed, just because the signals were green? Anymore than they should, or would, continue onto a diverging line if the signals indicated so, when they knew their route could not be run that way? Or pass a signal to a non-electrified line in an electric train, they knew that line had no catenary but "the signaller had set the route, so it was nothing to do with me"? None of that is either sensible, logical, or acceptable. Drivers are professionals and must use their skills, experience and knowledge, their competence. This includes communicating with others and not simply playing a 'not my job governor' part. You do them a great disservice by the ludicrous point you try to make.

As a driver, especially on the ECML you will never know which route you are going to take. If its booked over the flat and the signaller wants the incline then the signaller is adjusting the booked route.
You can't be a signaller or a driver

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

How many times would a driver need to be accompanied over the flyover by an instructor before they can drive the route on their own? Is there a requirement for a driver to be accompanied over the route in the dark, or can all route learning be done during daylight hours?

 

[t0ffeeman]

I suspect its once. Some companies are trying to get away with watching a DVD of the route!

 

[philjo]

I believe that the upgraded down fast-slow crossover at Cambridge Junction hasn't been comissioned yet, so the fast trains not calling at hitchin (e.g. Cambridge fasts and the peaks to Royston that are non-stop Stevenage to Letchworth) will continue using the flat junction for now.
Having said that the rails on the fast-slow crossover are now shiny - for many years they have been rusty (or even had one rail missing!)
The new route indicators on the down lines on the approach to Hitchin are still covered over.

 

[causton]

I suspect its once. Some companies are trying to get away with watching a DVD of the route!

For a simple addition such as this, I wouldn't disagree with that really! Wouldn't really want a whole route to be taught by DVD but it's not a terribly complex addition, a simple DVD watching and 100% pass mark test afterwards...?

 

[t0ffeeman]

For a simple addition such as this, I wouldn't disagree with that really! Wouldn't really want a whole route to be taught by DVD but it's not a terribly complex addition, a simple DVD watching and 100% pass mark test afterwards...?

If it was a simple piece of flat no problem. But as the name says its an incline. Drivers should at least know (once) how many notches to get up the damn thing and how hard to brake to stop before the signal at the end.
Its a rollercoaster ride really. If theres no practice then there will be errors

 

[ffm]

As a driver, especially on the ECML you will never know which route you are going to take. If its booked over the flat and the signaller wants the incline then the signaller is adjusting the booked route.
You can't be a signaller or a driver

So the driver then sees the alternative route and it is their responsibility to stop and inform the signaller that they do not know that route.
You can't be a driver without responsibility for your actions.

 

[Tomnick]

The question is then who picks up the resulting delay. Whilst only certain drivers sign the route, I'd suggest that it'd be the signalman, if he'd not confirmed the route knowledge first - whether it was meant to be up to the driver to advise him or not. Personally I think it makes more sense for the driver to advise him in advance - the signalman then knows what options he has when it comes to making regulating decisions involving that train (but possibly some time before its arrival at Hitchin).

 

[jamieP]

The question is then who picks up the resulting delay. Whilst only certain drivers sign the route, I'd suggest that it'd be the signalman, if he'd not confirmed the route knowledge first - whether it was meant to be up to the driver to advise him or not. Personally I think it makes more sense for the driver to advise him in advance - the signalman then knows what options he has when it comes to making regulating decisions involving that train (but possibly some time before its arrival at Hitchin).

Currently the driver if he signs the route will contact the signaller in advanced. If he dosnt then the train will be signaled accross the old jn.

 

[Tomnick]

Ta, that was my understanding - and it seems like the most sensible way. I'm still not sure how it's meant to push any delay minutes onto the driver!

 

[HST Power]

Went over the Flyover for the first time on Tuesday, on a near-empty 365 coming back from London. It does feel strange continuing towards Peterborough, but you get a good view over the East Coast Mainline, and if you sit on the left of the train you get a good view as you come around the curve. All in all a job well done!

Are all trains scheduled to use it now?

 

[A-driver]

Went over the Flyover for the first time on Tuesday, on a near-empty 365 coming back from London. It does feel strange continuing towards Peterborough, but you get a good view over the East Coast Mainline, and if you sit on the left of the train you get a good view as you come around the curve. All in all a job well done!

Are all trains scheduled to use it now?

Not all are-only 5 a day are booked (all 313 Letchworth terminators) and they have a conductor driver booked to take the train Hitchin-LGC incase the driver dosnt sign it. Other trains are being routed there if it will save time at the junction and obviously only if the driver signs it.

Signallers have been told not to route trains over there just because a driver asks now as it adds 1 min to the journey and FCC pick up the delay for it but as I say, if its going to take a while to get across the old junction then the signaller phones you around stevenage to see if you sign it.

All trains SHOULD start using the flyover from December but I can't see that happening as they have had to suspend driver training for the past few weeks owing to the shortage of drivers-they couldn't afford to release 6 a day to learn the flyover whilst cancelling numerous rush hour trains due to no driver.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Not all are-only 5 a day are booked (all 313 Letchworth terminators) and they have a conductor driver booked to take the train Hitchin-LGC incase the driver dosnt sign it. Other trains are being routed there if it will save time at the junction and obviously only if the driver signs it.

Signallers have been told not to route trains over there just because a driver asks now as it adds 1 min to the journey and FCC pick up the delay for it but as I say, if its going to take a while to get across the old junction then the signaller phones you around stevenage to see if you sign it.

All trains SHOULD start using the flyover from December but I can't see that happening as they have had to suspend driver training for the past few weeks owing to the shortage of drivers-they couldn't afford to release 6 a day to learn the flyover whilst cancelling numerous rush hour trains due to no driver.

That all sounds very familiar!

 

[causton]

All trains SHOULD start using the flyover from December but I can't see that happening as they have had to suspend driver training for the past few weeks owing to the shortage of drivers-they couldn't afford to release 6 a day to learn the flyover whilst cancelling numerous rush hour trains due to no driver.

How long does it take to learn the route? I'm presuming there is not enough gap between the peaks then to call drivers in to learn it? Or is it a case of 'if you go to this short route learning session all of your normal duties for the day are cancelled'

 

[A-driver]

How long does it take to learn the route? I'm presuming there is not enough gap between the peaks then to call drivers in to learn it? Or is it a case of 'if you go to this short route learning session all of your normal duties for the day are cancelled'

It's a 1hour briefing with videos and then you have to do one trip over in the cab and only 2 road learners can do that at once (any more and you can't see put the windows).

It's not a case of going on this 'short' day and all your duties are cancelled, it's a case of being easier to cover the entire job than try and fillin the middle bit as the jobs are so complicated.

Then take into consideration that few jobs are all day, if you cover the morning peak and then finish with off peak work you are booking on at 5am and finishing around 2/3pm so no time to do the training there really and if on lates you are booking on around 12-1500 and not finishing until midnight. Not as simple as fitting it in 'off peak '.

Plus you need to travel to Hitchin and back within your day obviously so whilst its a nice short day for a Hitchin driver, you need about 90mins travelling time for Peterbourgh, at least an hour for Cambridge, 2 hours for Lynn and about an hour for kings cross.

And as only 2 can road learn per train, out of the 6 being trained every day (can't have more for the simple reason that the briefing room at Hitchin isn't big enough plus they can't release more than 6 drivers a day or else too many trains would be cancelled) they can have to wait a few hours to catch a train over there.

Road learning and driving in the same day isn't done. It's just too complicated to sort out as drivers diagrams arnt a case of a few trips there and back.

 

[jon0844]

As I read that (thanks by the way!) I could already picture some commuter moaning about why drivers need to be trained at all, and how they could just drive up there and sit on a train and do it in five minutes - and many other ridiculous suggestions because they don't appreciate how things are done.

 

[A-driver]

As I read that (thanks by the way!) I could already picture some commuter moaning about why drivers need to be trained at all, and how they could just drive up there and sit on a train and do it in five minutes - and many other ridiculous suggestions because they don't appreciate how things are done.

Indeed. After all its mad to think that we spend a year training how to press 'stop' and 'go' in the first place. Then we have the cheek to demand a days training on a brand new piece of track despite not even having to steer. Tell us it's 50mph and let us get on with it. After all there is nothing else we really need to know or worry about is there...