Hitachi strategy

[47802]

Mod note: below posts separated from Class 800 thread, here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=100841

Oh dear, silly me for not specifying the first train of the main series production run at Newton Aycliffe for the East Coast.

As far as I'm aware, none of the pre-series trains has a complete interior right now, in order that they can carry test kit, and given the fact that the pre-series trains will all need to be overhauled and fully kitted out before entering passenger service it seems unlikely Virgin will want one set running around that differs from the rest if they do indeed get much more say on the interior than DafT was willing to give GWR on the initial batch.



As noted above, it's PR nonsense. But Hitachi acquired Ansaldo Breda in full knowledge of all the rubbish that they have built over the years - and you can bet your life quality control will be top of the list of priorities for action. Hitachi only paid Finmeccanica 30 million Euros for AnsaldoBreda's assets, which says a lot. The real money was spent on the simultaneous acquisition from Finmeccanica of its stake in the Ansaldo STS signalling business.

Steps had already been taken in the right direction before Hitachi took over, with the new Frecciarossa 1000 high speed trains for FS in Italy apparently performing well - perhaps because AnsaldoBreda has an incentive to ensure this as it also holds the maintenance contract and knows if they are rubbish there is a ready-made replacement in the wings in the shape of Alstom's AGV, used by the open access Italian intercity operator NTV.



Given that Newton Aycliffe is basically full up with work on IEP and AT200 until the end of 2018, with a lot of the East Coast IEP work running on until 2020, they are not competing for anything right now.

Pistola is busy with Frecciarossa 1000 and coaches for FS until early 2017 but Hitachi presumably wants to keep work flowing there after that date, so switching the AT300s from Kasado suits them, especially if there are orders in the wind for more bi-modes to go to TPE, all due in service by 2019, requiring a lot more production capacity quickly. The TPE sets are all meant to be in service by 2019 and Newton Aycliffe is busy, so couldn't build many if any to meet that deadline given its existing commitments.

Given the uncertainty over Britain's future relationship with the European Union, it's perhaps not surprising that Hitachi don't want to put all their eggs in one basket in the shape of Newton Aycliffe, given that their declared strategy has always been to enter the wider European market. Buying AnsaldoBreda secured access to that market, whatever happens here.

Indeed so, although you've got to think long term after IEP and Scottish AT200 one of these factories will get the chop, clearly the Italian factory will need to prove it can deliver on quality, and then I guess there likely to be a number of factors at play, including future UK orders, future European orders and as you say the UK's future relationship with the EU.

 

[Mikey C]

Indeed so, although you've got to think long term after IEP and Scottish AT200 one of these factories will get the chop, clearly the Italian factory will need to prove it can deliver on quality, and then I guess there likely to be a number of factors at play, including future UK orders, future European orders and as you say the UK's future relationship with the EU.

I imagine Hitachi will be desperate to win the HS2 orders, and should be in pole position assuming the 80x are successful

 

[NotATrainspott]

Indeed so, although you've got to think long term after IEP and Scottish AT200 one of these factories will get the chop, clearly the Italian factory will need to prove it can deliver on quality, and then I guess there likely to be a number of factors at play, including future UK orders, future European orders and as you say the UK's future relationship with the EU.

No, given that the amount of rolling stock required in the UK is going to increase almost continuously, and it will then be necessary to replace each of these carriages at least like-for-like every 40 years or so from that point on. Simple like-for-like replacements will provide a continuous source of orders capable of keeping factories in production. When you then consider the demand for extra trains above and beyond what's needed today without any grand infrastructure projects - an extra train or two per hour here, an extension from 2 to 3 to 4 carriages there - there's yet more demand. Then when you add in the future need to build more and more new lines to satisfy demand the numbers are quite something. After Crossrail 2 there will be a Crossrail 3 and a Crossrail 4, each of which requiring an entirely new fleet of the longest possible trains running at the highest possible frequencies.

 

[sprinterguy]

No, given that the amount of rolling stock required in the UK is going to increase almost continuously, and it will then be necessary to replace each of these carriages at least like-for-like every 40 years or so from that point on.

Blimey, you've got a very optimistic view of future rail travel in the UK! What makes you so certain that rail will retain its' modal share in the long term, against future developments in transportation and communications?

Closer to the present, there are a large number of early nineties EMUs (Networkers, 323s), as well as presumably a lot of late eighties DMUs and EMUs that are likely to be requiring replacement after the current rush of orders is complete. Although, given the frequent "boom or bust" nature of privatised train orders, there'll probably be a gap until after 2025 before the manufacturers witness the next major tranche of train building.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I imagine Hitachi will be desperate to win the HS2 orders, and should be in pole position assuming the 80x are successful

It will be at least 5 years before HS2 rolling stock orders are placed.
For the captive stock, all the European majors can supply off-the-shelf designs already in squadron service on high-speed lines all over Europe.
For classic compatible trains a UK-specific design is needed, but most of the majors will still be bidding.
I don't think Hitachi will have any particular advantage in the bidding.
A 140mph IEP design won't cut it for either requirement for HS2.

 

[Mikey C]

It will be at least 5 years before HS2 rolling stock orders are placed.
For the captive stock, all the European majors can supply off-the-shelf designs already in squadron service on high-speed lines all over Europe.
For classic compatible trains a UK-specific design is needed, but most of the majors will still be bidding.
I don't think Hitachi will have any particular advantage in the bidding.
A 140mph IEP design won't cut it for either requirement for HS2.

I would have thought the experience of the 80x and 395s would be of benefit, especially for the classic compatible trains. None of the rival bids are likely to offer much in the way of UK assembly either, as Derby I assume will stick to conventional stock.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I would have thought the experience of the 80x and 395s would be of benefit, especially for the classic compatible trains. None of the rival bids are likely to offer much in the way of UK assembly either, as Derby I assume will stick to conventional stock.

Bombardier, Siemens and Alstom, not to mention CAF and others, have at least as much pedigree in proper high speed trains (300kph+) as Hitachi.
UK manufacture is not the only criterion.
Siemens are already operating e320 Velaros on HS1, so they are effectively the front runner at the moment.
An Alstom AGV design would also probably have a UK-supplied traction package.

 

[33Hz]

Indeed so, although you've got to think long term after IEP and Scottish AT200 one of these factories will get the chop, clearly the Italian factory will need to prove it can deliver on quality, and then I guess there likely to be a number of factors at play, including future UK orders, future European orders and as you say the UK's future relationship with the EU.

I would say that thinking long term, a British and an Italian factory will supply more than just the British market.

 

[BananaRepublic]

........I don't think Hitachi will have any particular advantage in the bidding.
A 140mph IEP design won't cut it for either requirement for HS2.

Hitachi are positioning their AT400 concept as a possible contender for both requirements.
They'll still have to compete on an equal footing with other bids.

http://www.hitachirail-eu.com/at400---very-high-speed_154.html

 

[themiller]

I would say that thinking long term, a British and an Italian factory will supply more than just the British market.

Don't forget that the Newton Wycliffe factory has something the the Italian factory doesn't - a couple of hundred miles of UK gauge railway which hinders deliveries of European gauge trains by rail!

 

[Haydn1971]

Don't forget that the Newton Wycliffe factory has something the the Italian factory doesn't - a couple of hundred miles of UK gauge railway which hinders deliveries of European gauge trains by rail!

Yeah because that really got in the way of Hitachi with the 395 and early SET models when they were shipped by boat.

 

[455driver]

Yeah because that really got in the way of Hitachi with the 395 and early SET models when they were shipped by boat.

Uh they are built to the British loading gauge, what theMiller is on about is building Continental gauge stock at Newton Aycliffe and then trying to deliver it (to Europe) by rail!

 

[superkev]

Don't forget that the Newton Wycliffe factory has something the the Italian factory doesn't - a couple of hundred miles of UK gauge railway which hinders deliveries of European gauge trains by rail!

Yes I always thought that if I was building a train factory here it would be next to a continental loading gauge line which at the moment I suppose means HS1 or near a port.
Isn't Newton Aycliff Tony Blair's constituency?
K
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Has anyone any idea of the weight of the cars. That's a huge engine to hang underneath.
K

 

[Haydn1971]

Uh they are built to the British loading gauge, what theMiller is on about is building Continental gauge stock at Newton Aycliffe and then trying to deliver it (to Europe) by rail!

I know exactly what he was saying, point is, shipping by rail isn't necessarily going to positively benefit any order for any nation - shipping is so small a proportion of total cost of a train - currency differences are more likely to influence where a train is built than shipping.

 

[southern442]

I know exactly what he was saying, point is, shipping by rail isn't necessarily going to positively benefit any order for any nation - shipping is so small a proportion of total cost of a train - currency differences are more likely to influence where a train is built than shipping.

And also as to how greedy the government is!

I do think that we should export trains, as despite the large cost, we have made some good quality trains in our time and I think that a lot of countries could benefit from our products. Take the 158's for example, which many think of as a good quality train, the Thai exports are still knocking around I believe. And also the success of the Gautrain in South Africa shows that there is potential demand for our train models.

 

[jon0844]

Surely you just phone up Yodel and they'll deliver your newly built European gauge trains anywhere you want for a few quid?

 

[Bletchleyite]

While not a British product per se, the Thais also use Class 350s (ish) on the Bangkok airport express. Don't know why they did that for a new build.

 

[47802]

Don't forget that the Newton Wycliffe factory has something the the Italian factory doesn't - a couple of hundred miles of UK gauge railway which hinders deliveries of European gauge trains by rail!

True, but the UK plant also has something else the Italian factory doesn't, a factory and staff built and trained from scratch to Hitachi Standards, rather than a factory and staff known for building shoddy goods which will need to be retrained and substancially uplift their quality. I know which I think is likely to be the easier and more successful option.

 

[455driver]

True, but the UK plant also has something else the Italian factory doesn't, a factory and staff built and trained from scratch to Hitachi Standards, rather than a factory and staff known for building shoddy goods which will need to be retrained and substancially uplift their quality. I know which I think is likely to be the easier and more successful option.

Indeed, the British do have a history of building excellent cars when the leadership is good and there are no reasons that cant carry over to building trains.

 

[matchmaker]

Surely you just phone up Yodel and they'll deliver your newly built European gauge trains anywhere you want for a few quid?

Or more likely a card saying "you weren't when we tried to deliver"!

 

[fowler9]

Indeed, the British do have a history of building excellent cars when the leadership is good and there are no reasons that cant carry over to building trains.

The Morris Marina for example.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And also the success of the Gautrain in South Africa shows that there is potential demand for our train models.

That didn't stop South Africa placing a mega-order with Alstom for 600 new EMUs for all the major cities.
Much like IEP, most of the build will be in a new local factory, partly funded by Alstom.
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...d_list[]=south&sword_list[]=africa&no_cache=1

 

[47802]

The Morris Marina for example.

I think '455driver' was making the point about good leadership eg 'Nissan' rather than British Leyland Leadership.

 

[jon0844]

Or more likely a card saying "you weren't when we tried to deliver"!

Exactly, and then you make them come and collect!

 

[fowler9]

I think '455driver' was making the point about good leadership eg 'Nissan' rather than British Leyland Leadership.

I think I was joking hence the

 

[455driver]

The Morris Marina for example.

I allow you your Marina and raise you the Austin elAggro or late mark4/early mark 5 Cortina!

I was thinking about the Nissan factory etc but you knew that anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think '455driver' was making the point about good leadership eg 'Nissan' rather than British Leyland Leadership.

I was but I think he knew that and was being ironic!

See this ^^^this^^^.

 

[fowler9]

I allow you your Marina and raise you the Austin elAggro or late mark4/early mark 5 Cortina!

I was thinking about the Nissan factory etc but you knew that anyway!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I was but I think he knew that and was being ironic!

See this ^^^this^^^.

Indeed mate. Ha ha. I certainly didn't think you meant the likes of the Morris Marina. Oh my god, the Allegro as well. Hows about the Maestro. Mind you do you remember the Metro 6R4.

 

[455driver]

Indeed mate. Ha ha. I certainly didn't think you meant the likes of the Morris Marina. Oh my god, the Allegro as well. Hows about the Maestro. Mind you do you remember the Metro 6R4.

I owned an MG maestro 2 litre, not a bad car, took us to Eurodisney no problem and as for the 6R4 what a bloody machine, much better than the RS200.

 

[fowler9]

I owned an MG maestro 2 litre, not a bad car, took us to Eurodisney no problem and as for the 6R4 what a bloody machine, much better than the RS200.

An uncle had a Maestro that was less than reliable shall we say. It was a dream compared to the Marina company cars my dad had though. Ha ha. The 6R4 was a beast. It was the Lancia Delta S4 that did it for me with the old Group B cars though. An absolute monster.